www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization Newsflash: We MUST kneel during Sunday Liturgy

SLAVA ISUSU CHRISTU!
SLAVA NA VIKI BOHU!

I was wondering if your parish would like to swap us for our Irish Bi-ritual priest who still doesn't have a clue?? How can we sweeten the deal?? I know that he doesn't celebrate St.Basil's Liturgy so they won't be kneeling that long anymore.

Can you imagine, the Feast of St.Basil and you use St.John Chrysostom's Liturgy.....

How 'bout if we throw in some Irish Sweepstakes tickets too??? A dozen pysanky maybe???

mark

"I have been to Russian (OCA), Carpatho-Russian, Greek and Antiochian Orthodox Churches and the Antiochians were the only ones who didn't kneel. However, I don't think anyone would accuse the others of being Latinizied."

Oh, I think it is fair to characterize that practice among the Orthodox as an example of latinization -- at least here in the parishes in America. Together with pews, choir singing, etc. -- all things Orthodoxy learned from the Latin West.

Brendan

Dear Anthony,

There must be more to this issue than what has been made public. It seems odd that the Metropolitan would reject the restoration of a more authentic Byzantine discipline when last year Bishop George of the Eparchy of Van Nuys directed that standing is the norm for that eparchy. The logical and common sense approach would have been for him to acknowledge the original custom of standing, the latinization of kneeling and then granting liberty to each to do as they felt called.

Since this issue has now been debated in a public forum and the Metropolitan's letter is also now public (since it was read from the pulpit) it should be possible to provide a more comprehensive summary along with a copy of the text of the Metropolitan's directive.

Prayers,
Moose

Moose,

You write:

"It seems odd that the Metropolitan would reject the restoration of a more authentic Byzantine discipline..."

It seemed very odd to me as well. I spoke at length with Father Pyo about this, and he said that the Metropolitan was sympathetic with his position, but as it stands the official directives for the Archeparchy of Pittsburgh requires kneeling. When pressed to do so by the angry 2%, the Metropolitan found it necessary to support the Acheparchial directives, and hence require kneeling on Sundays.

Father Pyo also said that the Metropolitan is not particularly fond of kneeling on Sundays, and would not actively oppose a change in the directives. Hence, Father Pyo plans to raise this issue in February at the priest's conference, and hopes to get the official directives changed so that standing will at least be an option. Let's pray that his effort is successful.

In the meantime, everyone must confirm with the official directives and kneel on Sundays, with the excepion of Easter season of course.

God bless,
Anthony

Anthony,

>>but as it stands the official directives for the Archeparchy of Pittsburgh requires kneeling.<<

I am quite surprised that a past hierarch actually wrote the latinization of kneeling into official directives. Most of the latinizations just happened. I wonder if the Metropolitan takes equal action with those parishes who still celebrate the Stations of the Cross during the Great Fast, the celebration of the Divine Liturgy on weekdays (which are aliturgical) or for those priests who refuse to celebrate the Presanctified Liturgy or give infant communion. With all due respect to the Metropoltian, this seems like a very Latin, legalistic approach to the issue rather than a pastoral one. My hope and prayer is that our Byzantine renewal is one of spirituality and liturgy and not one of laws and externals.


>>In the meantime, everyone must confirm with the official directives and kneel on Sundays, with the exception of Easter season of course.<<

Since every Sunday is a little Pascha can one conclude that this loophole is big enough to allow standing?

I join with you in prayer that our Byzantine renewal takes another step forward by allowing liberty in this matter for all those who wish to follow the Byzantine discipline of standing, rather than kneeling.

>>>Since every Sunday is a little Pascha can one conclude that this loophole is big enough to allow standing?<<<

I am surprised that we would find ourselves stooping to the latinization of looking for legal loopholes. The fact is, there are canons which pertain to our behavior on Sundays, and as a rule, we should follow those ecumenical canons when there is a deviation between them and the directives of the local Church. Moreover, the Byzantine Tradition is not the Latin Tradition, and while the Latins may place a premium on uniformity of posture in worship, the Byzantine Tradition never has (hence the repeated injunctions to stand, and the fact that one may find people kneeling in various Orthodox jurisdictions, or even, in the case of some more pious Russians, prostrating during the Epiklesis).

What I am saying, Anthony, is that you brought this upon yourself by trying to get people to approve of what you were doing. Why would you even care? You want to stand, stand. What are they going to do? Excommunicate you? Burn you?

Do what you feel is right, and forget about everyone else. They certainly don't care what you think. Be a witness to the authenticity of the Byzantine Tradition, and eventually the rest will catch up.

After the royal reaming our hierarchs received in Boston in November 1999 for their dilatory approach to liturgical renewal, I can't see these official directives having much teeth. So ignore them, in good Byzantine fashion, and let the chips fly.

I don't make a big deal out of the people who are kneeling in my parish. Most do so out of habit, and because the kneelers are comfortable. I notice that when the kneeling people have to worship in temples without kneelers, standing suits them just fine.

I totally agree with this advice. While it is easy to stand at Annunciation Church because everyone stands I see no reason why we all can't stand if we choose. Father Loya often emphasises our freedom of worship. At that was the attitude I took when visiting Livonia. Out of over 100 people I was the only one who stood.

"What I am saying, Anthony, is that you brought this upon yourself by trying to get people to approve of what you were doing. Why would you even care? You want to stand, stand. What are they going to do? Excommunicate you? Burn you?"

Dan Lauffer

Not that I support kneeling on Sundays, but it would seem to be a rather salient fact that the Metropolitan has spoken, giving clear direction, at least for the present time.

As Fr. Pyo prepares to go through the appropriate channels, it might lend prayers for his success a little extra "oomph" to swallow pride and practice the virtue of obedience. Before anybody decides that a call to obedience is a Latinization, check out what the Desert Fathers had to say about it.

Cheers from a slightly different but quite similar trench,


Sharon


Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

Stuart,

Well, the Metropolitan has instructed us that we must kneel. If I were to stand, I would be disobeying my bishop. I have a theological problem with doing so, unless I have a super COMPELLING reason. I don't think that this quite reaches such a serious level. But I do see it as being symptomatic of a larger problem in the Byzantine Church.

Likewise, everyone else in the parish has returned to kneeling. They have done so out of obedience to the Metropolitan.

Also, I don't think that we brought this on ourselves. I, and others, were standing (at times) before Father Pyo made it an option. I took some heat from a few of the babas, so I often ended up kneeling with everyone else. I didn't feel that it was worth scandalizing these women. When Father Pyo made standing an option, almost everyone took advantage of it. We didn't seek approval from anyone, and those who wanted to kneel could kneel. But it was the kneeling folks who involved the Metropolitan in all of this, with their barrage of angry letters and phone calls. They couldn't TOLERATE people standing during Sunday liturgy.

Now that the Archbishop has told us what to do, I must in good conscience remain obedient - even though it deeply saddens me.
What would you do in this situation?

God bless,
Anthony

Anthony



[This message has been edited by Dragani (edited 01-09-2001).]

>>I am surprised that we would find ourselves stooping to the latinization of looking for legal loopholes. <<

Twas a joke. I guess I should have made sure to use a smiley.


>>What I am saying, Anthony, is that you brought this upon yourself by trying to get people to approve of what you were doing. Why would you even care? You want to stand, stand. What are they going to do? Excommunicate you? Burn you?<<

Anthony will speak for himself but it appears to this moose that he was simply following the invitation of his pastor to stand if he wanted to, since it is the Byzantine custom.

In the Archeparchy of Pittsburgh they no longer excommunicate or burn people. The 21st century penalty is the force feeding of grocery store brand, extra fat kielbasi.

Moose,

In the Archeparchy of Pittsburgh, the only people who are routinely excommunicated are infants and small children. Thank God that's no longer true everywhere, but universal change will not come quickly - or at least not quickly enough.

I'm grateful my kids fall under Parma practices.

Sharon

Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

Dear Dragani,

I commend you for your act of obedience. However, since the decision of the Metropolitan is against the ancient canons of the Eastern Church, and against the spirit of the renewal of the authentic eastern tradition in Liturgy, I do not think it is the last word.

When a former bishop of Pittsburgh decreed and tried to enforce Latinizations, he was censured by Rome.

Rome has made its direction clear. I wonder if they are aware of the Metropolitan's decision? Should they be?

Christian

Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory forever!

Anthony,

I am so sorry to read about the problems of your parish. I can see that this is really taking a toll on you.

I too commend your humility. I think that you are using good judgement in following your metropolitan. I will keep you and your parish in my prayers.

Dragani:

I have been told by clergy with some direct knowledge of the situation that this "letter" is only meant for that particular parish and to quell problems amongst the congregation. Right or wrong decision...don't know.

Curious as to whether the split between the kneelers and the non-kneelers is along generational lines, with the "younger" generation actually seeking to reinstitute older tradition. I've noticed this to various degrees in a few other parishes.

But as one priest said: If you don't build them, they won't kneel.

My prayers for your parish community.

>>>Well, the Metropolitan has instructed us that we must kneel. If I were to stand, I would be disobeying my
bishop. I have a theological problem with doing so, unless I have a super COMPELLING reason. I don't
think that this quite reaches such a serious level. But I do see it as being symptomatic of a larger
problem in the Byzantine Church.<<<<

Interesting. I was at our parish in Williamsburg last week, for a pontifical liturgy celebrated by Bishop Andrew. Nobody knelt. But then, there were no kneelers. Father Pyo should simply remove the kneelers, since it is my imperical observation that people only kneel when kneelers are provided. People who normally kneel at Epiphany were at the liturgy in Williamsburg, and they were standing with the rest of us.

So I say, if people want to kneel because it is a penitential posture, then by all means they should be allowed to kneel. But they should be willing to suffer for their conviction. Just get a screwdriver, pull out the retaining pins, remove the kneelers, and send them off to a deserving Latin parish somewhere. Then we would see who is REALLY devoted to kneeling on Sundays, and who just wants to be different from "Thoseorthodox".

But if I were you, I would still stand. A matter of conscience. You might want to send a note to Metropolitan Judson reminding him of the little lecture he got from Cardinal Silvestrini in Boston, concerning the pace of liturgical renewal in America.

[This message has been edited by StuartK (edited 01-18-2001).]