www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization St. Louis Byzantine Catholic Mission

I thought long and hard before making this response. I profusely apologize in advance if someone is offended.

What the Vatican has said about the Eastern Catholic Churches is good and proper for Eastern Europe. However, America is a melting pot of cultures. We are not witnessing the Latinization of the Byzantine Catholic Church in America. We are witnessing the Americanization of the Byzantine Catholic Church.

Remember what Gamaliel said about the arrest of Peter and the apostles: "[I]f this endeavor is of human origin, it will destroy itself. But if it comes from God, you will not be able to destroy them; you may even find yourselves fighting against God." Acts 5:38-39.

Similarly, if the Americanization of the Byzantine Catholic Church comes from God, it will not be able to be destroyed. One does not want to be on the side fighting against God.

With respect to St. Therese of Lisieux, the Little Flower, she did not pay much attention "to be on the side of what the Church instructions [were] regarding" an audience with the Pope. She ignored the rules set down by Pope Leo XIII and Vicar General Rev. Reverony. Story of a Soul, page 134, John Clarke, O.C.D., Third Edition (1996). A 15 year old girl had the audacity to speak her mind to the Holy Pontiff!

Imagine the Byzantine Catholic Church 20 years from now in America. She may be principally located in the urban areas since this is being abandoned by the Roman Catholic Church.

In that event, I can see a Byzantine Catholic Church that is 25% African American, and sings old Negro Spirituals before Divine Liturgy, during Communion, and after Divine Liturgy. I hear the congregation shout during the Homily "Amen, Brother!" and "You preach it, Brother." And I see this coming from God. Acts 5:39.

The train is getting ready to leave the station. Time to get on board.

Glory, Glory, Hallelujah!

JP

The Vatican is not what is telling us Eastern Christians around the world to de-Latinsise. This is the product of almost 100 yrs of Papal instruction and a major theme in the one document on us at Vatican II. We have our own forms of devotions and the Latins have theirs. In our churches we dont gain anything by again going backwards to Latin prayer forms again. An example is that Latins get an indulgence for the Rosary which we dont get but we get an indulgence for saying the Akathistos, as our own proper devotion to Mary. It would be more approriate for the people to have a minor hour of the office as is done in many Byzantine Churches.

ICXC
NIKA

Dear John Patrick,

You raise a fascinating point!

I too believe that the Byzantine Catholic churches are being Americanized, even if they are located in Canada . . .

The issue, from a sociological point of view, is what will be the impact on the EC Churches in the long run?

The jury is still out on that, but I would advance my own thoughts on this matter.

I believe that the BC Churches need to become more "Orthodox" in terms of their overall spiritual culture. By that I don't mean they should leave communion with Rome - they should re-establish a relationship with Rome that is a true "communion with" rather than a "union under."

Even though we don't talk about ourselves as "Rites," the fact of the matter is, as I see it, BC's, for all practical purposes, do indeed see themselves as "alternative Catholic rites."

In other words, for many EC's (the ones I know), the criterion for attending Church on Sunday is to "fulfill the obligation to hear Mass."

If the BC parish is somehow not to "my liking," the service is longer than the one the Latin parish down the street has, or whatever, then BC's will go to the Latin Church even when there is no pressing need other than their "whims" to do so. I have come across a Latin parish up here where the children of many of our regular UGCC parishioners attend because they like the music (heaven help us!) and it's where "things are happenin').

Returning to our Eastern traditions is difficult, especially when the "time standard" for "fulfilling the Sunday obligation" is that of the Latin Church - anything that makes one stay in church LONGER will mean people will either go to another parish or even, more and more, go to the Latin parish down the street.

That kind of Americanization will KILL the EC Churches, sir. It will not make us more open to others, allow us to share our spirituality with non-cradles, those of other ethnic groups etc. It will simply kill our parishes that will be taken over by others.

And I think we EC's kid ourselves when we say that the depletion of our parishes is because they are too "ethnic" only.

It is also because the domination of the cultural mainstream makes our onion-domed churches look really out of place in North America too.

We are in battle with cultural processes and we need to take the bull by the horns before we are gored to death.

Alex

uh, John Patrick, have to raise a point here, dude.
not all African Americans show exuberance as you have suggested. in fact, some African Americans I know are solid Catholic,or Episcopal,or Congregationalist,just to mention a few. in fact, many avoid such shows in their churches, and prefer a dignified service, and that might just help bring 'em in to the fold. they even teach a few White folks I know HOW TO BEHAVE IN CHURCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Much Love,
Jonn

Jonn - here's one African American who is an EXCELLENT reader at the Russian Patriarchal parish in Baltimore: http://www.readermichael.com
FDD

By Americanization did you mean "Protestinization". Because the practices you listed surely shouldn't occur during a Western Mass or an Eastern Divine Liturgy IMO.

I know for a fact that these practices are happening at some African-American Catholic parishes in St. Louis and Kansas City, and white folks are clamoring to attend Mass there.

It is unlikely in my opinion that the Holy Spirit is limiting His evangelization to African-Americans to the two largest cities in Missouri. This phenomenon is probably found throughout the the African-American communities of our major cities.

The Byzantine Catholic Church in America could make a lot worse decisions than to decide to embrace the African-American communities. A little bit of soul is good for our souls.

Praise the Lord! Amen!

JP

Diak:

Awesome post. I am sincere. Mr. Bishop's website is very good.

I think everyone should read the website and consider sending an e-mail of support to reader@michael-bishop.com. He probably feels like a missionary in a strange land.

As for me, I am starting a new Novena to St. Therese of Lisieux tomorrow for African-Americans to join our Mission in St. Louis.

If you don't want to attend Divine Liturgy with African-Americans, Hispanics, and other minorities, get out of the way. The American Byzantine Catholic Church is a steamroller becoming a Church of color.

The Good Lord knows that we need it.

JP

Orthodox Catholic:

I agree with you 100%.

I unintentionally overheard one of our parishioners talking to the priest while they walked into the Church this weekend. The parishioner basically said that "He has a Sunday obligation to go to Mass, but a Sunday opportunity to go to Divine Liturgy."

I feel the same way, and pray that nobody will ever be able to take this opportunity away from me.

JP

The deacon in the center was our deacon at the cathedral until this past year, when he moved to another state. Everyone loved him.

[Linked Image]

This in a highly traditional old Russian parish, we have a congregation that is 40% convert. I understand that there is a Ukrainian Catholic monastery in upper Michigan with a heguman who is also an African American.

Likewise the Faith still has a strong grip on the Aleuts, who have remained faithful even after incredible pressure and discrimination (dare we say persecution?) was used against them by the United States government.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Race is not a barrier to Eastern Christianity. What is needed is for the community to be respected, courted and welcomed.

Over time the church will gain an American flavor to enhance it's ancient qualities, but this will not be planned in advance. In living, vibrant communities it will occur naturally in the same way it has already happened over time across the old world.

+T+
Michael

Please do tell how did you get the pics onto the page?

What is the step by step process involved?

It is great the Aleut people have made Orthodoxy their own and hung on in there despite everything.

ICXC
NIKA

Perhaps an Akathist to St. Moses the Ethiopian would also be in the intercessory spirit here considering the intention.

Fr. Paissius Altschul has a small convent in Kansas City with several AA convert nuns under the Serbian omophorion. Fr. Moses Berry has a small OCA parish near Springfield (MO) where he also takes care of an historic slave cemetery.

FDD

I know it is happening in parishes accross the country, I am saying though that it shouldn't. Those are protestant practices. Catholics and Orthodox should stick to the Traditional hymns and Chants of our respective Rites and not adopt protestant hymns. This isn't anything to do with race. There are plenty of African Americans whom are good Traditionally minded Catholics or Orthodox.

I think the American Byzantine Catholic Church should look at the Protestant practices and consider adopting some, not all, of those which are consistent with our developing Traditions.

For example, it is a Baptist Tradition for members to attend Bible study class one night a week. I would love to see this become a Traditional practice in the American Byzantine Catholic Church.

While not a Protestant practice, another example is the re-enactment of the scene where Juan Diego runs up to the Bishop and opens his cloak letting fall a shower of roses and revealing the icon of Our Lady of Guadalupe. My mouth dropped the first time I saw it done during a Roman Catholic Mass for Mexican-Americans. It then made perfect sense when I realized it was the feast day of Our Lady of Guadalupe who is, after all, the Empress of the Americas.

Taking what is good from other cultures and adding them to the American culture is the essence of the melting pot. Sometimes a little more garlic added to the olive oil and onions improves the sauce.

As I have previously said, Pope John Paul II's recommendation to the Byzantine Catholic Churches to return to their original Traditions is good for Eastern Europeans. It will not work for the American Byzantine Catholic Church because we are slowly developing our own Traditions.

These are just my thoughts. I respect your opinions. Let's agree to disagree.

JP

My daughter will be moving to St. Louis (MO) in a month---please do tell more about this mission. She will miss our little mission so much for the next year. She graduated from University of Steubenville 3 years ago and is quite comfortable with the Roman Rite...but she dearly loves our Eastern Church....I am presuming you are in Missouri...can you tell me how to get her intouch with you? We will be driving cross country to St. Louis at the end of April. Thank you!
blessings
Alice