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Dear Orthoman,

It sounds like you're sad I've come back for a few posts!

Are you?

And it's been longer than 24 hours - more like a week.

I can come back next week or wait a little longer.

As long as I'm not asked to leave . . .

I'll owe you that steak!

Alex

[ 06-24-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

[ 06-24-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

Alex:

Life would be dull around here without you.

However, you did make one post last week within 24 hrs after you supposedly left. How do I remember? because I won a bet on it! I din't get a TBone but I won the bet.

OrthoMan

Dear Orthoman,

Oh, THAT post!

That was only a post to thank everyone for their prayers and good wishes.

It made my soul good to read them!

That wasn't a really substantive post, not like my usual in-depth, get to the heart of the matter, pretend-I'm-Schmemann posts

The Administrator is very tolerant of me. (I think he likes me ).

And he's never asked me to leave or make a choice about Boards.

Not every Board does that, you know . . .

Who was the bet with, or should I guess?

Also, why were you so nice with OrthodoxyorDeath, when I'm up there in Byzantine News defending the glorification of an Orthodox Carpatho-Rusyn Saint?

Doesn't that earn me Ortho-points?

Alex

[ 06-24-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

[Also, why were you so nice with OrthodoxyorDeath, when I'm up there in Byzantine News defending the glorification of an Orthodox Carpatho-Rusyn Saint?]

Entirely different issues caused the schism within his church and mine. They were not caused by phelitism, nationalism, or politics. They were caused by the calander, ecumenism, etc.

To me that is a big difference in the sense they came about because of church related issues. Not nationalism and politics.

Though I may disagree with him on the calendar issue, I myself am not an ecumenist so agree with him on a lot of differences he claims.
Where we disagree is I don't believe they were important enough for his jurisdiction to sever itself from canonical Orthodxy.

How many times do I have to tell you my friend. I am not anti Ukrainian. I am anti nationalism, ethnicism, and believe national politics have no place in the church which falls within the kingdom of God. Not the kingdom of man. Ukrainians just mix it all together and come up with a high cholesterol stew!

OrthoMan

Dear Orthoman,

I agree that Ukrainian food can be bad on the constitution!

But how do you know that Greek nationalism doesn't inform the Old Calendarist movement and that it is ONLY there due to "religious" concerns only? Is it not also a reaction against the ecumenical overtures of Greek Orthodox churchmen toward the West? There are Greeks who have an aversion toward anything smacking of Latinism and that is all about national/cultural issues, mixed into religious issues.

Religion never exists independently from cultural and political issues. It doesn't with the Ukrainians. And it doesn't with the Russians and others.

Nationalism as a state ideology is one thing and certainly devotion to a "national church" has always been part of nationalist agendas.

But all Orthodox Churches especially are truly national Churches with, as Fr. John Meyendorff called it in fine American fashion, "cultural patriotism."

For Ukrainians, Georgians or Baltic Orthodox to be independent of Moscow imperialism, be it political or religious is not "nationalist" but simply their desire to be free to be themselves.

And how is the Russian Church, either the Moscow Patriarchate, or its exiled Church the ROCOR, or its American branch in the OCA not reflective of Russian national culture?

Yes, the OCA is open to other cultures, but that doesn't mean that national cultural loyalties are any less weak in its members. And I'm not suggesting that they should be.

I think we're abusing the term "nationalistic" without really understanding the difference between this political concept and national culture as an integral part of a Church's life.

What you accuse Ukrainians and others as being guilty of (and I know you're not anti-Ukie, let's not even go there), has ALWAYS been the case with all Orthodox Churches throughout history.

And you've still yet to say something nice about me for defending the glorification of that Orthodox saint . . . sniff . . .

Alex

But how do you know that Greek nationalism doesn't inform the Old Calendarist movement and that it is ONLY there due to "religious" concerns only?]


Lets let Orthodoxyordeath answer that one. The schism started over the calendar issue and escalated from there.

[ Is it not also a reaction against the ecumenical overtures of Greek Orthodox churchmen toward the West?
There are Greeks who have an aversion toward anything smacking of Latinism and that is all about national/cultural issues, mixed into religious issues.}

I think I referenced that in my reply. Though I disagree with your comment that the Greek aversion towards anything latinism is all about national/cultural issues mixed with religious issues.
As I have stated in my reply, I myself am no longer in favor of ecumenism. Especially if what I have seen and heard. The RCC tells us we are the 'other lung' and a sister church' but still treats us like we are the diseased or immature lung and the dimwitted wayward sister.
For an Orthodox point of view, what is there to negiotate? Everything we believe Roman Catholics once believed. So its all very simple. Return to the Orthodox Church and we will build from there. We are not asking you to accept new doctrine. We are asking you to believe and uphold the doctrine of your ancestors.
As far as Orthodoxyordeath and the old calendar. I don't condemn him for abiding by it. To criticize him for it would be like criticizing my own ancestors. I respect those who retian it as I respect those who have changed it. To me its a non issue. I know I will have to account for a lot of things in my life when I'm gone but I don't think what calendar i used will be one of them. Orthodoxyordeath has a different view.

OrthoMan

Dear Orthoman,

Ah, but the point is not knowledge or traditions here, with or without the ethnic admixture.

The RC's could proclaim adherence to every single point of Orthodox doctrine tomorrow and that won't make them one with Orthodoxy.

Unity is an ecclesial act and not an agreement or how closely we agree.

If I am cut off from the Church, either through schism, heresy or whatever, then my agreeing fully with you would still have me outside the Church.

What you said about OOD's position is truly an ecumenical statement. You agree with his Orthodox beliefs and traditions that you yourself admit your Church jurisdiction once adhered to.

The point is that your jurisdiction and OOD's are in schism. And that state of schism is the same as with the uncanonical Kyivan Patriarchate or the Roman Patriarchate or what have you.

That you can come to "respect" the Old Calendarists is, in and of itself, an ecumenical statement.

The Old Calendarists are at least consistent in maintaining themselves to be the true remaining remnant of Orthodoxy.

In addition, your points about coming back to Orthodoxy are that, your own, and don't reflect the remarkable ecumenical work achieved by the great theologians of the OCA.

As for Orthodox views on Roman Catholicism and Eastern Catholicism, I will stick with Meyendorff and his ilk, thank you very much.

You have every right to disagree with their stance.

And I have every right to agree with them.

So there . . .

Have a nice day!

Alex

If anyone is interested. here are two eb sites that provide pictures of the group that is now under the Jerusalem Patriachate -

There's a photo of the exterior of the new temple and a
news article on its purchase at:

http://www.pressbanner.com/OrthodoxCurch.htm

Another article on the first Divine Service at the new
temple is at:

http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/archive/2002/February/18/local/stories/01local.htm

OrthoMan

Confirmation:

I just got the following confirmation regarding the priests that were deposed by Metroploitan and their current status. Also, who is serving the new parish that went under the Jerusalem Patriarch
It seems they are still under 'ban' and are honoring that ban by not serving as priests.

----------

Correct me if I am wrong, but are not the priests who were under ban not
serving the Divine Liturgy and are not newly ordained priests ministering
to the Faithful? In our times, this is quite an example of personal
humility!

--------------------

Which is further substantiated by a member of the Ben Lomond parish -

In the meantime, the Felton parish is being served by newly ordained clergy, one of whom, Fr. Thaddeus Hardenbrook, is the son of John (Weldon) Hardenbrook who was the original rector of the Ben Lomond parish and leader of the rebellion.

OrthoMan

Pro Catholico,
There already is an Anglican Rite usage within the Latin Church. And as rumor has it at least a 1000 anglican clergy are moving to union with Rome in the near future, not to mention a lot of their congregations. It will be interesting
Stephanos I

Alex,
Could it be that what Fr Ryland meant that if the Evangelical Orthodox studied the issue extensively they would have at least been Eastern Catholic or as i prefer Orthodox in Communion with Rome.
I do not mean to be argumentative but the Holy Spirit being the Spirit of Truth is going to lead people to the fullness of truth, and as far as I can see it that means communion with the See of Rome.
Stephanos I

Dear Stephanos;All,

There is an Anglican-Usage or as I call it Anglican-Use variation of the Latin Rite (Roman Catholic Church)NOT an Anglican RITE (as meaning sui juris). To use the term RITE when referring to theAnglican-Use is not only confusing but in many cases used in an incorrect context. In any case Stephanos, can you elaborate on the rumor of the "mass exodus", (as it seems to me) of Anglicans to Catholicism?

Thanks,

ProCatholico

I am sorry I am not capable of elaborating any further than that. I have been in contact with some members from this group and it is still being worked out.

Stephanos I

Dear Stephanos,

Well, I believe that the act of faith in either Catholicism or Orthodoxy is something very personal that cannot be reduced to a more or less comprehensive "study."

There are no "facts" I believe, only interpretations of what was done and said in history.

How one interprets what one studies is also specific to the individual and his or her community.

I believe it is the same Spirit Who calls people to Orthodoxy as He does to Catholicism.

It is the same Spirit Who will one day reunite the torn Body of Christ.

Alex

Stephanos:
All,

Thank you for your response. Though you said that you could not elaborate any further on the supposed incoming numbers of Anglicans to Catholicism, you did say that you knew that they "were working on it". What exactly are they working on? What would prompt a large number of Anglican clergy to leave their communion at this age? Episcopal leader Griswald once stated "all you have left [the Anglican church] have done so already." So again I ask what could have prompted these Anglicans to leave their church at this time, all I see is that in some diocese they were begining to bless same sex and heterosexual, non-married partners. Any ones help would be appreciated.

ProCatholico