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Dear Friends,

These are somethings I've always wanted to ask, but never got around to it . . .

I know that the Priest ends the "Our Father" with "For Thine is the Kingdom, the Power and the Glory, of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit etc."

How does laity end the Our Father? Would it be wrong to end it the same way?

I've seen versions that end it like the above doxology, but with no reference to the Holy Trinity.

Other versions have, for laity, this ending: "At the prayers of our Holy Fathers, Lord Jesus Christ, our God, have mercy on us!

Fr. John Whiteford's Reader Services end it with: "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on us. Amen!"

Comments?

Alex

Let's see what our great Saint Peter Mohila has to say on this topic in his Confession of the Orthodox Faith:

Now, there are some schools of thought, as you pointed out, who say that ONLY priests can pray these words, and that laity can never pronounce them, even privately. In this case, the laity replace it with "Through the prayers..." or "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on us!" Privately, I always say "For Thine is the kingdom" since I view it as the concluding doxology of the Lord's Prayer (although some scholar's might debate that). However, when I would conduct Reader's Services at my church, I would generally follow what is prescribed and not use it.

Oh, Saint Peter's teaching on this matter can be found here: http://esoptron.umd.edu/ugc/ocf2a.html

Dave

All the materials and prayerbooks put out by the Metropolia and the Melkite Eparchy include it and make no mention of laypeople not being allowed to say it.

Dear Dave,

Excellent!

Dyakuyu!

The Old Believers end it with the Jesus Prayer and make the Sign of the Cross and bow, according to their custom.

The full doxology with the mention of the Holy Trinity is most beautiful!

The Coptic tradition, I see, does it both ways, as this is recorded in the Didache (?), and they end their Our Father with:

"Through Jesus Christ our Lord. For Thine is the Kingdom, the Power and the Glory, forever and ever. Amen."

Thank you, once again.

Alex

Dear Lance,

Then why does your Horologion use "Through the prayers . . ." instead of the doxology at the end of the Our Father?

Uhmmm?

Alex

Whoops!

When putting that together I was using Fr. Whiteford's collection as a base and forget to edit that. However, as Dave said if doing a Reader Service one should err on the side of reservation unless one's hierarch has officially sanctioned laypeople using it at such a service. In an amended edition I think I would include it but indicate all should say it simultaneously rather than the reader saying it alone, as this might be considered presumptuous.

It has become the habit among Byzantine Catholics to conclude the Lord�s Prayer with the doxology �For Thine is the Kingdom�.� Alex is correct to point out that the correct usage is �Through the prayers of our Holy Fathers, Lord Jesus Christ, our God, have mercy on us.� Only a priest would pray the doxology "For Thine is the kingdom...."

As a comparison, examine how a deacon or layperson would lead Vespers in the absence of a priest. A deacon cannot vest without a blessing from a priest so he leads Vespers as does a layman (generally leading the entire service from his place before the icon screen). He does not begin with �Blessed is our God� but with �Through the prayers of our Holy Fathers, Lord Jesus Christ, our God, have mercy on us.� The people pray the Trisagion prayers and the leader concludes the Lord�s Prayer with �Through the prayers�.� He does not pray the petitions of the litanies nor does he pray the prayer of the doxology and the doxology. The people generally sing �Lord, have mercy� 12 times and move to the next hymn. Vespers (or Matins or any other service) continues in this fashion.

For a very short example of this see:
A Morning Rule of Prayer .

Dear Lance,

Do you mean that I may have caught you off guard here for the first time?

Is there somewhere on this Forum where this can be recorded for posterity?

God bless you and your work!

Alex

Dear Administrator,

I really do think one of the beauties of the Byzantine liturgical tradition is the precision with which these matters are determined and maintained.

There has been a tendency to try and "blur" the distinctions between clergy and laity in the West for various (rather invalid) reasons.

The distinctions that are maintained in the horological services in our Church are both important and serve to bring us into a greater appreciation of the role of the Priest and Bishop, a role that no one else may replace in any way.

That is what you have brought to my mind for reflection and I'll think I'll go off and ponder this a bit more.

Thank you for the inspiration that you constantly serve up here!

Also, the Morning Rule that you have listed above is, as you know, the Rule of St Pachomius that was revealed to him by an Angel (except with 100 Jesus Prayers).

St Pachomius recited this same rule with 100 Prayers at the turn of each hour - 12 times during the day and twelve at night, and three time at 3 in the afternoon at the "Time of Grace" when Christ died on the Cross for our salvation.

Coptic and Ethiopian Monks still observe this rule and they often include 12 Psalms as well.

I like to use that Rule seven times a day in this way.

Now I think I'll pray for the grace to be calm before "electoral storms."

(Am I a riot, or what?)

Alex

I was going to say something but Dave really said it all in his quote of St. Peter Moghila.

So the answer is yes it is OK to say the Doxology after the Our Father (privately) and yes it is OK to also defer the doxology to the priest and instead say "Through the prayers" consistent with Fr. John Whiteford's instructions, which can be found at http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/services.htm

When leading Reader's services or a Typika it is definitely the common accepted practice to omit the doxology after the Our Father (and all priestly blessings and doxologies for that matter) and insert "Through the prayers..." consistent with the schema that Fr. John recommends.

It is interesting that the ACROD prayer book "The Hours of Prayer: A Book of Devotion" also includes the text of the Doxology right after the Our Father with no notes on when to take it or not take it. This is one of the few Orthodox-printed prayer books that do.

Agreeing with Alex I also am a believer in leaving priestly (or episcopal) parts intact and following our beautiful Byzantine practice which does do a great job in keeping proper respect for the priesthood which is iconic of respect for the High Priest, Christ Himself.

I think it all boils down to this: Is "For Thine" an integral part of the Lord's Prayer which is merely given to the priest by virture of his rank, or a doxology which is not an integral part of the prayer but is a nice "finishing touch" added by a priest.

A good case could be made for either side. Some maintain that "For Thine" is only a liturgical doxology added later to the Scriptures; the RSV places it in a footnote, not in the actual text.

As has also been noted in this thread, it seems to have been fairly common for at least a century, maybe longer, for Ruthenian/Greek Catholic prayer books to include "For Thine." The text used, though, would be without the mention of the Holy Trinity, as is found in Matthew 6. The popular "C'lib Dus^i" (both Greek Catholic and Orthodox versions) includes it. The "Come to me" prayer book of ACROD includes it.

Some Orthodox prayer books, like the popular "Jordanville" book, don't put anything at all.

We can't chalk this up to a "Latinization" since Romans don't usually say "For Thine" when they pray it outside of the Liturgy. They often view it as "Protestant" to say it. Please correct me if I am wrong!

We have many prayers which end in doxologies. Almost all the morning prayers, evening prayers, pre- and post-Communion prayers end in doxologies. We do not cut them off or leave them out if no priest is present in our icon corner.

So, what does all this mean? I don't know. As with many things in Byzantine liturgical life, we can find many different answers.

Dave

I kind of muddled some books together. Let me be more specific:

The original "Chlib Du�i" from the 1920's includes it, without mention of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

The Slavonic/English edition includes it as above.

The two editions I have of the "Chlib Du�i" published by the Orthodox Church in Slovakia, one old and one new, include it with mention of the Trinity.

The "Come to Me" prayer book includes it with mention of the Trinity.

So, at least from a Carpatho-Rusyn perspective, it has been okay for the laity to pray it.

I just thought of something interesting, though. In most traditions, when the Lord's Prayer would be prayed before meals in the presence of a priest or bishop, the Glory, now and ever, and triple Lord have mercy would be prayed immediately after the Lord's Prayer. The only tradition that I have seen that has the priest pray "For Thine" after the Lord's Prayer and before the blessing is the Ruthenian.

Dave

Dear Dave,

This thread has got me reviewing my prayerbooks at home and there is something further that I wanted to raise.

It seems that the Old Believers and also the Cell Rule of St Seraphim of Sarov even has a different way of saying the "Through the prayers" ending!

Priests are to say "Throught the prayers of our Holy Fathers, Lord Jesus Christ OUR GOD have mercy on us."

But when laity pray this in private, they are to say: " . . . Lord Jesus Christ, SON OF GOD, have mercy on us."

The Old Believers NEVER use "Our God" for laity or else outside the Liturgy. St Seraphim seems to follow this pattern in his cell rule and I see it elsewhere too.

Interesting, no?

Alex