www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Relations with Islam

Among some Balkan Islamic groups there exists a tacit belief/tradition that the non-Islamic world essentially exists merely for the benefit of Muslims.

For example, Christians and all they possess, including one's children and spouse, even land, wealth, etc., is merely held in trust by non-Muslims since Allah has decreed that the "world and all it contains" is the rightful possession of the Ummah Islami. In-other-words, Allah merely tolerates the Rum (and other "kafirs"), for the benefit of the cause of Islam and individual Muslims.

I do not know if this is the attitude of Muslims outside of the Balkan homeland. But it is self evident to at least some of us that non-Muslims, in the eyes of some Balkan Muslims, essentially had no innate human rights and were merely expendable once they were without utilitarian use to the Ummah Islami.

Bill

(PS-I do not want to paint Balkan Muslims with too broad of a brush. In Sarajevo and other parts of Bosnia, especially during the Tito regime, there were many examples of intermarriage between Slavic Muslims and Serbs and the Muslims essentially accepted Christians as equals within the greater community. Unfortunately, the ancient fires of ethnic and religious hatred were smoldering below the surface. Once the heavy hand of totalitarian rule was removed, and with the concurrent "Balkanization" of Yogoslavia,...well...a conflagration of hatred consumed the good intentions and lives of a erenic few.)

[ 11-13-2001: Message edited by: Psalm 46 ]

[ 11-13-2001: Message edited by: Psalm 46 ]

Dear Friends,

O.K., O.K., we can agree that not all Muslims are nice, as is the case with Christians etc.

But what should our relationship with them be today from the point of view of the imperatives of Christianity?

A Franciscan scholar on Islam who wrote "The Koran in the Light of Christ" understood it as a kind of "Old Testament."

He felt that Muhammad (peace be upon him!) had done much to bring the pagan world as he found it to the worship of the one God etc.

That his religious world view was imperfect from a Christian perspective is a given.

I have also come across writings by Muslim scholars who affirm openly that "incarnation would be the most perfect union between God and man."

Do the positives outweigh the negatives in Islam? What positive things can we do now, today, given what is going on in the world to reach out our hands to our Muslim neighbours and fellow citizens, as well as to the Muslim world?

Alex

Alex,
That is a strange view of the Qur'an in my view.

How can it be a kind of Old Testament when it was writen during the New Testament times?

It dates from the sixth century doesn't it?

Also, I am not sure that the negatives out weigh the positives but we can not take the positives without the negatives.

After all, the Qur'an denies the Divinity of Christ, among other things. Not to mention that the Qur'an teaches that the Torah and the Gospel have been corrupted by the Jews and Christians of the times to such a point that what we have today is different than that which was given to Moses and Jesus.

Your brother in Christ,
David

Dear David,

"Old Testament" in the sense that some have used it, that other religions are like an "Old Testament" that prepare the way for people to receive Christ. They are not the Christian message, but they come closer to it than what they believed before, that sort of thing.

St Augustine believed that the pagan Greek Philosophers had developed a kind of "Old Testament" in that their philosophy prepared the way for the pagan Greeks to accept Christ.

Alex

Not that the adherents of Islam have universally been paragons of Christian charity throughout the ages, but I am somewhat disturbed by the tenor of this discussion.

It rather reminds me of the occasional spitting matches between the folks who firmly believe that the [fill in your jurisdiction] Church has been victimized throughout history by the [fill in opposing jurisdiction] Church, and "victim" Church is without sin in these matters. These discussions also generally include a great deal about what the opposing Church supposedly professes. This sort of chat generates a lot of heat & not much light. The major difference (beyond the fact that Islam is not a Christian faith) is that in this discussion, we have no Muslim representation.

I firmly believe that my Faith is the Truth, and that my Lord and God and Savior Jesus Christ is wholly pure, and without sin. I do not believe that my Church nor its members have always shared all of these attributes, especially in dealing with those who do not profess the same Truth, nor present it in the same way.

For myself, I know that I am steeped in sin.

Just a thought. Pregnant women get moody, ya know.

Sharon

Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

Dear Sharon,

But you've been famous for your pregnant ideas for way before this!

May St Gerard Majella protect you and yours always!

Alex

Sharon's point is well taken, and something I tried to emphasize in my previous post. That most of the commentary we hear about the true essence of Islam (i.e. from the President, news media, etc.) is coming from non-Muslims or Muslims placating a Western audience of the "politically-correct", "I'm OK, you're OK", "different strokes for different folks", multi-cultural, pluralistic crowd. This is one reason I cited the Naipaul book, because it lets Muslim voices speak for themselves.

This flattening out of any real discussion of the distinctions between our two very different worldviews actually HARMS substantive dialogue IMO. It seems to me we're all too eager to see our Muslim brothers & sisters through our own post-modern lens, and ignore the real challenge (both in a negative AND POSITIVE sense) Islamic culture and ideology presents to our contemporary secular society. It just easier to see them as "just like us" and the trivialize the uncomfortable aspects of their value system.

I would think that this comment would resonate with many posters here who often encounter a society that attempts to minimize Gospels values, or more specifically honest Christians who are ignorant & uneasy with Eastern Christianity's "alien-ness" in their model of a generically religious America. If Byzantines are not "Catholics with a funny mass" then Muslims should not be considered (anonymous) Christians with a strange Holy Book and alternative prophet.

So where does that leave us? How do we respond to our Muslim neighbors whether here or abroad? Well, we approach them with the love of Christ, recognizing that they are equally "children of God." And I believe that is the stance that the Pope operates out of. You don't ignore or trivialize differences, you don't say "hey we're really just the same", you don't co-opt their symbols & faith traditions as a way of showing how enlightened WE are! No you just say - let's sit and talk. Honest dialogue.

I have relatives of Albanian and Turkish Muslim descent who converted to Orthodoxy in the early 1920's, but not out of religious conviction. (One great uncle, Mehmet, refused to follow the rest of the family and, though not personally religious, clung to his Muslim secular culture. He had hutzpuh, to say the least.)

Not a few Albanian Muslims attend our Greek festivals and dances and enjoy our festivities, especially our food.
We never discuss religion, since in the old country such discussions often resulted in violence, even border skirmishes. But, person to person, such discussions can be productive, if friendship or improving community relations is your goal.


However, I would not get too idealistic about converting Muslims to Christ through Chamber of Commerce dinners and through the gospel according to Dale Carnegie. Muslims usually convert to Christianity for more practical reasons, such as mere survival. Others (a mere handful) will come to Christ out of conviction rooted in personal crisis, but that is rare. Of course, my observations on based on the "Balkans experience."


On the dark side, fraternal relations between Slavic Muslims and Christians in Bosnia-Herzogovina quickly vanished in the dust of war. Former school pals and next-door neighbors oftened betrayed one another, even murdered one another, in the name of a god or religion they didn't truly believe in.


In the Balkans, "friendship" between Muslims and Christians can be very tenuous. It is still a good idea to "sleep with a revolver under your pillow."


Mine is just one observation of many,but based on historical reality, facts and experience and certainly not on ivory tower hypotheticals and sugar-coated idealism.


On the other hand, our American or Canadian experience can be more fruitful, free of the horrendous memories of battles and massacres fought long ago.

Peace

Bill

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Islam, as the Russian Orthodox Priest noted is Byzantine Christianity's Mormon Church. In that a poorly educated frontiersman (read that poorly educated arab in the desert)who experiemented with many different expressions of Faith (Mohammed met with and studied Judaism, Christian Gnosticism, Christian-Arianism, Iconoclasts, and even esoteric Gnostic Monasticism) and like Joseph Smith had a visitation by an Angel (Gabriel) who gave him a hitherto unknown book, the Quron/Koran.

Like Joseph Smith and the early Mormons, he suffered rejection and prosecution---his response was to organize his followers militarily and fight back. Like Mormonism (which was seen by some as an off-shoot of the Restoration of ancient christianity bis-a-vis the Campbellite vision of "true religion") Islam was seen by Byzantine Christianity as just another heterodox/heretical group with their own vision of "true religion". Like Mormonism, Islam was not fully rejected until its teachings were known to be in such direct violation of Traditional Orthodox Christian Teachings of the Holy Trinity.

A reading of this week's Time Magazine will give some insight into the popular view of Islam and Christianity in the several Islamic magazines that are quoted in Time. It appears that for many it is not an issue of East versus West but of destruction of any and all Christian.

We need to pray especially for those Christians in pakistan and other Islamic countries who live in constant danger of Jihad and annihilation by their Moslem neighbors.

Your brother in Christ ,
Thomas

Islam — the Mormonism of Orthodoxy. That's one of the best ideas I've read! A different faith, not Christian, but intertwined with and an offshoot of Christianity. The parallel works.

I imagine a lot of people think Mormonism is Christian, just another brand of conservative, squeaky-clean evangelical Protestantism — a misconception I think the Mormons encourage. They can pull it off because this is a home-grown American religion whose roots culturally are in this kind of Protetantism but no longer so theologically. It blends in. (Most people don't realize Donny Osmond believes if he dies a good Mormon he'll get a whole planet full of humans who worship him as God — "spirit children' begotten by him and his own Mrs God. Mormons aren't monotheists!)

BTW, there is a Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, led by actual descendents of Joseph Smith — although they accept the Book of Mormon as scripture, I believe that unlike Mormons these folks are Christians.

a poorly educated frontiersman (read that poorly educated arab in the desert)

Both Muhammad and Joseph Smith may have been poorly educated formally but I think both probably were brilliant and, it seems, self-taught — it takes a brain to seek to learn so much about various religions and then write a "holy book' accepted as such by a multitude not only in one's lifetime but centuries later. Muhammad mixed Judaism, Nestorian Christianity (plus Arianism and Gnosticism?) and pagan Semitic beliefs; Smith mixed his Protestant background with American Indian legends.

http://oldworldrus.com

La'illaha il'Allahu": There's no reality but God; there is only God

Praise to Early-Waking Grievers

In the Name of God the Most Merciful, and the Most Compassionate

This is the fourth journey toward home, toward where the great advantages are waiting for us. Reading it, mystics will feel very happy, as a meadow feels when it hears thunder, the good news of rain coming, as tired eyes look forward to sleeping. Joy for the spirit, health for the body. In here is what genuine devotion wants, refreshment, sweet fruit ripe enough for the pickiest picker, medicine, detailed directions on how to get to the Friend.

All praise to God. Here is the way to renew connection with your soul, and rest from difficulties. The study of this book will be painful to those who feel separate from God. It will make the others grateful. In the hold of this ship is a cargo not found in the attractiveness of young women.

Here is a reward for lovers of God. A full moon and an inheritance you thought you lost are now returned to you. More hope for the hopeful, lucky finds for foragers, wonderful things thought of to do. Anticipation thought of after depression, expanding after contraction. The sun comes out, and that light is what we give, in this book, to our spiritual descendents. Our gratitude to God holds them to us, and brings more besides. As the Andalusian (Spanish Muslim) poet, Adi al-Riga says,

"I was sleeping, and being comforted by a cool breeze, when suddenly a gray dove from a thicket sang and sobbed with longing,
and reminded me of my own passion.

I had been far away from my own soul so long, so late sleeping, but that dove's crying woke me and made me cry!

Praise to all early-waking grievers!"
.....................................
Some go first, and others come long afterword. God blesses both and all in the line, and replaces what has been consumed, and provides for those who work the soil of helpfulness, and blesses Muhammed and Jesus (Peace be upon them!), and every other messenger and prophet.

Amen, and may the Lord of all created
beings bless you.
.....................................

......from the Mathnawi by Jelaluddin Balkh /aka/ Rumi(which means "from Roman [Byzantine] Anatolia.)

Rumi was an Afghan (born 1207), from Balkh, Afghanistan, whose family fled the Mongol invaders and settled in Konya,Anatolia(now Turkey).

He represents the "other side" of Islam:The one that is deeply spiritual, philosophically profound, and worthy of the hightest regard and respect.

And even the "perfidious" Turks and Albanian Muslims have graced the world with holy saints and even more simple amd everyday people of outstanding character and human qualities.

"I am neither Christian,Jew, Zorastrian, nor Muslim; I am neither of the East nor the West, nor of the land nor of the sea."....."Putting aside duality, I have seen that this world and the next are one. I seek the One, I know the One, I see the One. I invoke the One. Allah is the First and the Last, the Outward and
the Inward."--Rumi.

Salaam

Bill

[ 11-14-2001: Message edited by: Psalm 46 ]

Sorry, folks, but I guess my Greek descent in the blood is reaching to my brain.

I don't buy this idea that Islamics are organically related to Christianity or Judaism. Like Harry Potter's images of 'spiritual' reality and forces, Islamis have taken ideas from both Judaism and Christianity to lay a cognitive foundation for their beliefs. (You can't start a religion in a vacuum.)

The 'theology' of Islam is rooted in a sense of domination by the 'leaders' of the faith-community. It is, after all: "submission". To "Allah" sure, but to the leaders who are mandated to enlarge the faith.

In my view, the links to Abraham, to Christ, to "Mariam", etc. are purely subterfuges to organically link Islam to historical reality and to provide a legitimation of their 'faith'. And then, to engage in a 'theological/historical' conquest of anybody who happens to be in their [commercial/economic] way. (I suspect that many religious Jews feel the same way about Christianity -- usurpers of their tradition. And sources of persecution.)

While as an American I am more than willing to accept Islamics in American society (and I would hope that our government would exercise a more balanced approach to the Palestinians instead of just knuckling under to Israeli policies), I do not accept the idea of an "Islamic Society" (a part of the Mohammedan 'world-view') since it, in itself, condemns any non-Isalmics to persecution and death. True Christianity does not allow for the persecution or execution of those not of the faith; Islam has a different view based upon its theological world-view, especially in places where they have the upper-hand. (Interestingly enough, in this regard, Judaism is closer to Islam in the sense that the "tribal" sense of identity and dominance are more pre-eminent than Christians would be comfortable with.) Israeli law permits the "return of Jews"; everybody else who want to live there: get in line and ask nice. There was an American Jew in Maryland who as being indicted for the murder and dismemberment of a drug-dealing buddy; he fled to Israel and claimed 'right of return'. He's still there more than 5 years later.

So, I'll accept Sam's offer of Uzis. Though I don't want to sink to the level of either group since Christ said "Forgive and turn the other cheek", I will still not "submit" as the Slamis would like.

I'll "love 'em" as Christ demanded of us, but I won't turn my back on them.

Blessings!

I've been told that in the context of Judaism, Chrisitianity is considered a heretical sect.
Is anyone familiar with the teaching?

If it is true, the discussion of Mormonism and Islam and their relationship with religion(s) in the regions in which they originate would seem to reflect an earlier attempt to explain a new religion in terms of another older religious community. Wonder if that's a pattern, and if so, what its ramifications are for us as Christians?

Just thinking aloud!

Steve

Joy!

Please do not allow the written expression impede the meaning or the love!

Christian-Muslim Dialogue

Msgr. Michael Fitzgerald

Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue

www.sedos.org/english/fitzgerald.htm [sedos.org]

Inawe, we should note the difference in that Christianity came from within Judaism and its first adherents were Jews who recognized the fullfillment of the Old Testament in the Lord. Islam on the other hand originated in Arabia, in a region that harbored Jews, Arians, Nestorians, and those that were exiled to the East as punishment for heresy. Muhammad's travels as a merchant also added to his experience. This was a religion that sprang from one Arab man who had much opportunity to glean what he could from other religions and cultures. Islam did not originate from within a nation that followed whatever faith the new religion was supposed to build up on. There is no continuity as there is in the historical development of Christianity from within Judaism. In addition, the new religion rejected the Scriptures as corrupted, and Protestantism rejected Catholicism as a perversion of Christianity, while Christianity accepted the Old Covenant as its necessary precursor, and did not claim the Law was corrupted by the Jews but was preserved, unlike the Muslim claim that the Gospels and Torah are false fabrications of real Scripture.

In IC XC
Samer