www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West The Catholic Church has apologized, when will the Orthodox Churches?

Robert wrote:

"The current meaning of Papacy is but arrogancy."

Arrogancy?

What century are you living in, Robert? Have you read or followed NOTHING that this current Pope has said or done? I find the indifference of many Orthodox to John Paul II quite striking, and only paralleled by the indifference showed to him by so many unfaithful Catholics.

This Pope has done more for the cause of peace and unity between our Churches than any Orthodox hierarch on the planet, though some have done more than others.

If you have not yet done so, and by your posts I would wager you haven't, I would recommend reading some of the writings of this current Pope, starting with Ut Unum Sint and Orientale Lumen.

Otherwise, in my opinion, it is your assessment of the "current meaning" of the papacy which is more reprensentative of ill-defined and ill-informed "arrogancy".

Gordo, sfo

I am at fault. I started this "conversation"to vent my own frustrations and thinly or not so thinly disguised hatred for the Catholic Church while trying to convince a lunatic-fringe part of my personality that I was engaged in something positive that is nothing but a walk through hell for those who do not share my background and haven't a clue as to my frustations or world view. The only good thing to come out of this whole lunacy is my self-knowledge that I am not a Christian-there is no way I can avoid the obvious any longer and cling to a sentimental attachment to Christianity that lacks content(other than bitterness) and manifests itself only in negative tones. You're right-I have been acting like a religious nut and I am glad you have brought an end to this lunacy by interjecting yourself forcefully and helping me to grab hold of myself and say:"This is enough." Ironically, I have been seeing a rabbi for discussion and study and Friday past he said essentially what you said and said so well. My crypto-hatred for Christianity and the Nazarene will not go away by making whipping boys of individual Catholics. The only thing that works for me is when I pray the simple Hebrew prayers my relatives taught me as a child even though I was baptized Greek Orthodox. That connection with a desire to connect with the Unknown God does help; lifts me out of my ego and places me in a ethnic-cultural spirituality that I feel safe in. I hate your Jesus and I hate your blood-drenched church but, I hate none of you. If I could, I would wipe these lunatic posts clean. Sorry.

Soulsearcher,

One would rarely if ever find such honesty among the protestants I have known. I am still technically a protestant but soon, if it be God's will, I will be a Byzantine Catholic. Most protestants I have known are convinced that neither Catholic nor Orthodox are Christians and that they themselves are above repentance.

I thank God for your last post.

Dan Lauffer

Dear Soulsearcher,

I am very happy for you--you have found a way to unite yourself with God in a peaceful way. I am sorry that you have been so tormented by the past.

May God bless you on your path.

Dear Dozier,
As long as you cling to the teaching of the Infallibility and Supremacy of the Pope that is not part of Holy Tradition it remains to be rebuked and refuted. To continue believing that the Pope of Rome is superior to all others(Patriarchs) is but the sin of pride. Get rid of it then we can seriously talk about genuine unity. I think many Orthodox as well as myself admire Pope John Paul II. We have nothing terrible to say about him. We hope he draws closer to the Orthodox Church and draws the Roman Catholic Church as well. I have read many papal encyclicals written by the Pope which have not effectively drawn the Orthodox Church. The Pope does not have many years left. We also wonder how the next Pope will be like in terms of working things out with Orthodoxy. History has only shown us the major drift that continues to this day. There is a mindset in Catholicism that is and would never be reconciliable to Orthodoxy and probably vice verse. Byzantine Catholicism or Uniatism are neither the appropriate solutions or models between the East and the West. Papalism has no room in Orthodoxy and Orthodox understanding. Do you have the solution you think that will attract the Orthodox Church to the papacy and vice verse? Is it really possible? In my opinion I don't think so. I mean this sincerely. I do not perceive in the near future the doctrine of Papal Infallibility being abrogated by any Pope yet to come. Perhaps when this does occur it can heal the wounds between the two churches and they would workout many other details.

In Christ,
Robert Sweiss

Dear Elais,
I sense some of your emotional frustrations and I can sympathize with them. However, schisms are unfortunate but I would have to say that the Ecumenical Church of the Apostles as proclaimed in the Creed is indivisible. The Holy Spirit has not mislead the Orthodox Church. Once one begins to believe in the schism of the Body of Christ they at once imply the abandonment of the Holy Spirit. Maybe you have a different understanding than mine. I view the Church from her view rather than my view. The Orthodox Church proclaims boldly that she is the ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, and APOSTOLIC CHURCH; the CHURCH OF THE SEVEN ECUMENICAL COUNCILS; and the Bride & Body of Christ. The current Pope has a great spirit and his labor is much. This is probably one of the greatest Popes of all times for the Roman Catholic Church- alive in our midst. Yet the process of reconciliation is going to be a very long one and I don't know and don't think it will happen while I still have my being. Maybe God will overturn what I said and draw the two churches together while alive. I don't know. However, I do know where the Church is but not where it is not.
By the way it has been a while since we spoke. How are you doing? I pray that you are doing fine. Did you celebrate Pascha yet or are you going to celebrate this week? Just curious.

In Christ,
Robert Sweiss

To Rob S.,

I celebrated Pascha this past Sunday. Too much food! But it was good.


To Soulsearcher.,

Do the Psalms.


Elias

Robert -

Thank you for clarifying your intention behind the statement "contemporary meaning of the papacy". It's clear to me now that you didn't intend to malign the current Pope, so much as the definition of the role of the papacy.

I apologize for my overreaction, but your constant attacks on my faith tend to grate my nerves after a while. It's not that you are convincing in your argumentation, it's just that I believe in the Catholic faith, and you abhor it - or at least what you consider to be its distortions of the apostolic faith.

What's more, your hatred for Catholic doctrine in areas of disagreement with the Orthodox at times prevents you from dealing respectfully with the sensibilities of members of this forum who disagree with you. (Although, there are notable exceptions among some of your posts.) For instance, you refer to Catholic teaching on the papacy as "papalism" and Byzantine Catholics as "uniates", despite the fact that you KNOW that these terms are pejoratives, intended only to elicit reactions and inflict insults on those who are equally passionate about what they believe. In short, at times you can be a religious e-bully with a keyboard picking fights in the e-sandbox.

Such a manner is not representative of the Orthodoxy that I love and share with many Orthodox brothers and sisters, including a close friend of mine who is an Orthodox priest. There is no glibbness in their words or attitude, just simple faith and love for what they believe and desire to share. For me, their example in word and deed is a simple, humble light leading to Christ. Yours is a hammer which wounds, but does not heal.

Before you respond to this post, and in the remaining days of your Great Fast, I would encourage you to take seriously to heart what I have written, asking yourself if your attitude and manner would be that of Saint Cyril and Methodius, or the great Saints Herman and Innocent of Alaska.

I wish you a Blessed Pascha.

Gordo, sfo

[This message has been edited by Dozier (edited 04-26-2000).]

Dear Dozier,
I am not really attacking your faith in Christ. My intentions have been to expose the inconsistencies by accepting union with Rome. In other words, the papacy is a distortion of primacy and it might take a while to come to a common understanding and agreement between the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church. I also believe in the catholic faith of the Orthodox Church and I certainly do pray that Rome to be reunited once again. History has shown time and time again
how Rome has tried to manipulate Orthodoxy under many Popes. I feel that the current Pope has good intentions. However, he needs to go beyond his good intentions with the Orthodox and place on the table the doctrines that alienate the Orthodox. In order to be "first among equals" Rome must be a servant of all(Mark 9:35). Try this analogy: If a waiter is going to serve you he better do his job well or else he will not be compensated nor recognized. If the waiter thinks he is in control of you I think you got another thing coming! This is what has happened with Rome being the waiter. The waiter tried to impose his food on the menu(teachings) on his customers rather than listening and respecting the wishes of the customers. Is it not clear that is why there is no Eucharistic sharing? The waiter wants to do and serve things his way rather than involving the participation and thoughts of his customers.
If the waiter cannot be respectful to one customer he will continue to repeat this manner at his own disposal. If he wants to do the job he has been hired to do he better read over his contract given from above. This contract has also been given to other similar waiters. A waiters job is a very difficult one but he is not the only one that is a waiter. Nor should he be domineering over other waiters but treating others with equality and appreciation. The Keys were not only given to St. Peter but to all the Holy Apostles for the glorification of God on high. All the Apostles were commissioned by Christ to do His work on earth as it is in Heaven. St. Peter was a leader and I don't believe he was searching for recognition but desired to serve. I tend to sense amongst Roman Catholics that they have a monopoly over him and that he cant really be the Apostle of the Orthodox Church. It can be argued that he was a leader in the Jerusalem and the Antiochian Church before Rome. At any rate, the words uniate and papalism are true to their meanings as I have stated. They are distortions of Apostolic Tradition.
Finally, you may be right about me being a religious "e-bully" with a keyboard. However, it may be a reaction to e-bull from Catholics that have distanced themselves from Orthodoxy. We all need humility especially myself being first amongst sinners. I wish you as well a blessed Pascha.

Christ Is Risen. Indeed He Is Risen.

>>At any rate, the words uniate and papalism are true to their meanings as I have stated.<<

Do you also consider the works "nigger" and "kike" true to their meanings and use them in your everyday conversations when talking about Blacks and Jews? If you were a guest in at a NAACP or B'nai-Brith Bulletin Board would you use these terms? Or did mama forget to teach you to not intentionally insult your hosts?

No offense, Robert, but anyone who reads your posts can only conclude that the central teaching of Orthodoxy is hatred of Catholicism.

Thanks Philothea. You have a kind heart; a rare quality very often missing among "true believers" of all religions. The Holy and Unknown One must love you very much. I am not an ungrateful person. Thank you. RS: I am also driven by a mission that is my new obsession and one I will soon be able to devote all my time to: retrieving Jews and bringing them home as the Holy One, Blessed be He, wills. My strategy is analogous to yours but my tactics are different and, I believe, more successful.(If 36 hrs., can be an indicator for success.) Since I live in South Florida and since I specifically desired to target Christians of Sephardic descent, I placed small ads in four shoppers tabloids(in Spanish and English) offfering information on the Spanish/Sephardic culture including a map of our immigration paths after we were exiled from Spain/Portugal. I would have been grateful to the Holy One if I had received just a handful of responses. My answering machine runneth over! Many Argentines and Brazilians have not forgotten their origins and are sincere(I hope!) about exploring their past. Here is the point: I invite "them"(my potential converts) to come to me, voluntarily. I don't intrude into their lives and I help preserve the order of peace in "the cosmos" by preserving the peace between souls. This(in Judaism) is a holy deed pleasing unto the Holy One, Blessed be He. Mi amado ha descendido a su yardin a apacentar en los huertos para solazarme y cogar rosas. La voz de mi amado llama: "Abreme, amada mia, las puertas de Sion que yo amo." Let your Catholics come to you and then teach them. Let us all, in our small way, preserve peace in the cosmos by preserving peace between souls. Let the Holy One call His(not our!)lost sheep to that special place of rest in Sion that is his decree in all individual and autonomous lives. O Holy One, Thine will be done! Not ours. Shalom to all sincere people and mercy on the insincere.




[This message has been edited by soulsearcher (edited 04-26-2000).]

Dear Mr. Jeff Y,
I think you need to accept the words uniate and papalism without viewing them as derogatory. Such words convey their heterodox meaning and understanding from an Orthodox view. You may not like it and I cant help you with that. That is the reality. I can help you by exposing what is not Orthodox in Catholicism. Would you care to start a new topic and lay everything out on the tables? I do not believe words such as uniates and papalism correspond and relay the same derogative and racist meanings of "nigger" and "kike". The words I have used are not out of ignorance nor racist but out of a proper and historical understanding.
Lastly, let's keep our mothers out of this and I don't think they would like to be thrown into something they would not like. My posts are for people like you who need to know the truth about Orthodoxy and Catholicism. You may view my posts as condescending on the errors of Catholicism but nevertheless Catholicism needs help, big time in relation to Holy Apostolic Tradition.

>>I do not believe words such as uniates and papalism correspond and relay the same derogative and racist meanings of "nigger" and "kike". The words I have used are not out of ignorance nor racist but out of a proper and historical understanding.<<

That is your personal opinion. However such words are pejoratives and considered insults to Byzantine Catholics, who host this forum. Since you have already set yourself up as the judge of what it is to be Orthodox we should only expect you to set yourself up as the judge of what is acceptable or offensive to Byzantine Catholics. But then again, you are a convert with lots of hatred for Roman Catholics so of course you know better than the Church Father or the Orthodox bishops. Your lack of respect for others cheapens your witness of your version of Orthodoxy to the point where no one actually believes anything you say.

Dear Soulsearcher,
I wish you the best on your journey. If bringing the Jews back to Yaweh is your desire do so. There are as many Jews as well as Christians that fear not the Holy One. Judaism is limited to a certain people and creates the distinctions of one people versus another. That is not so with Orthodox Christianity. In fact, there have been many Jews who have made a conscientious to become Orthodox Christians and Priests. One may argue the same for Catholicism and Protestantism. If you are interested I can refer you to them. One Orthodox Priest,Fr. James Bernstien, was a former co-founder of Jews for Jesus and a former evangelical protestant. He is an interesting person who has found his home in the Orthodox Church. Even abroad in Jerusalem there have been Jews who converted to Orthodoxy. You have to ask yourself this honest question: what on earth would attract a Jew to Orthodox Christianity? This would be an interesting research! The history of the Jews converting to Catholicism over time has more cons than pros. I would like to believe otherwise but that is the reality of the West. You certainly have an interesting background of being a Greek and a Jew. Has you background been in any way a source of confusion in regards to religion or to Orthodoxy? Well, God be with you.

Dear Jeff Y,
Here we go again with this "personal opinion" issue. As long as you remain a Byzantine CAtholic you will always be known as a Uniate. We are taught in Orthodoxy to use good judgment in discerning what the Orthodox Church teaches and what she does not. Papalism is not taught but thank God it is rejected. That is the the last thing I need to hear from an Orthodox Bishop telling me he is infallible! I would like to tell you also that I am not a convert to Orthodoxy. I was baptized Orthodox as a child because my families were all originally Orthodox under the Jerusalem Patriarchy. I have returned to my roots over six years ago and realized that there is no salvation outside the Body of Christ,the Orthodox Church. Your church is a papal creation in order to subdue the Orthodox Church. Uniates sooner or later discover that they need to come back home to Orthodoxy. They get tired of being pounced on by ignorant Roman Catholic clergy as well as laity. I have no hatered for Roman Catholics. I just recently married one in my Church. I am praying for the Holy Spirit to convert her when the time is right. I also pray that the Holy Spirit will convert you to Orthodoxy. What I have to say to you may be insignificant to your mindset but is quite significant for those who don't think and respond the way you do. Please pray for the triumph of Orthodoxy.