As many of you know on the first Sunday of Lent , His Holiness Pope John Paul II asked forgiveness for the sins committed by members of the Catholic Church. In particular, His Holiness asked forgiveness for the times in history when Catholics sinned against members of other Christian denominations. Although there were no specific events mentioned, it is implied that the Pope has asked forgiveness for the sins committed by Catholics towards Eastern Christians, such as during the Crusades and the Sack of Constantinople.

I am very proud of this Pope for taking such an historic step in asking forgiveness for the sins of fellow Catholics in history. From what I have read in newspapers and in Catholic radio programs, many people are happy that the Pope did this. In fact, there are non-Catholics who have been so affected by this appeal for forgiveness that they are actually investigating the possibility of converting to Catholicism.

My question is when will the Orthodox Churches-specifically the Russian Orthodox Church- apologize for the way it persecuted the Eastern Catholic Churches? Since many of you are already familiar with the history of how Byzantine Catholics were persecuted by the Orthodox Churches, I won't go into details, but is a fact that the Orthodox Churches deliberately at certain times in history(especially during the communist control of Russia and Eastern Europe)persecuted the Byzantine Catholic Church.

Yes, the Orthodox Churches in eastern Europe were used by the communists, but it is documented fact that many bishops and priests cooperated with the communists in persecuting Byzantine Catholic to such a horrible degree(confiscating churhes and monasteries, shipping priests and monks to Siberia). As a result, we have many martyrs, many of whom are being investigated for canonization.

I applaud the Romanian Orthodox Church for being the first Orthodox Church to ask forgiveness for the way it treated the Romanian Catholics. When will the Russian Orthodox Church?

Personally, I am "ticked off" that the Russian Orthodox Church keeps speaking of Byzantine Catholics as a "problem that needs to be resolved". When will Patriarch Alexei II apologize to Ukrainian and Ruthenian Catholics for the way members of the ROC persecuted them?

Does not the apology of the Pope put the Patriach of Moscow in the spotlight?

I look forward to your comments.

[This message has been edited by Byzantino (edited 03-18-2000).]

Dear Byzantino,
I have a few issues for you to ponder and to evalaute. First, it may seem to be an excellent gesture of a public confession in regards to all the historical and theological atrocities committed in the name of the Roman Catholic Church without making specific apologies to specific subjects. However the act alone does not cut the cake. The Pope should have been specific to whom he was asking for forgiveness rather blantly admitting an act of public contrition on behalf of all the "sons and daughters of the church." This public act of contrition is no different when Orthodox bishops and priests during divine liturgy ask forgiveness from the entire Church. Repentance is a must as well as seeking forgiveness from the inflicted and persecuted. The Crusades are still fresh in the minds of Orthodox Christians and Muslims and Jews. The theological manipulations of Holy Tradition by Rome against Orthodoxy continue. I sincerely feel that the repentance of the Papacy can be the beginning of a sincere relationship. However, Rome has much to ask for forgiveness for what she has done unlawful towards Orthodoxy. As I have stated in other posts about Rome being the prodigal son, Orthodoxy awaits her return to the faith of unity as believed and understood by the Apostles. I do not even perceive mass conversions to Catholicism because of a papal repentance until Rome returns to Orthodoxy. Rome needs to be more honest about her historical existence and to admit that she fell outside the fold of Orthodoxy. The Orthodox Church has not ever committed the heinious crimes that are recorded and committed by Rome. The reason is that the Orthodox Church is infallible and not the bishop alone which by the way the doctrine of Papal Infallibility is an error. The Roman Catholic atrocities occurred because she left the Orthodox fold. When will Rome repent of this erroraneous doctrine as well as the doctrines of purgatory, indulgences, filioque,Immaculate Conception, etc? I did not hear or see an apology for these innovations which are violations of Apostolic Traditions. I am certain that if Rome repents and rids of these doctrines unity with Orthodoxy may become a reality. The Papal repentance alone is not enough. St. Peter alone is not enough. The use of the Bread Alone in the Eucharist is not enough. Maybe Rome has realized that it cant do everything alone which alienated the Orthodox Church in the first place as well as created the Protestant Reformation. I have one thing to say to Rome, "Come back home Rome." The Orthodox home.

Dear Robert,
Thank you for your post, however, a lot of what you have writtten in your reply is no different from what have written in other posts. Please do not attempt to change the direction of this discussion.
Based on what you have written, I can see that you probably harbor a lot of intense feelings- such as anger- towards the Roman Catholic Church. Were you originally a Roman Catholic? Did you become Orthodox as result of a bad experience you had in the Catholic Church(ie, liturgical issue)?
Yes, in our history, members of the Catholic Church have treated unfairly members of the Eastern Churches, but it is also true that members of the Orthodox Church treaded unfairly Eastern Catholics. The Holy father has apologized for these crimes, when will the Orthodox patriarchs?

You dismiss this issue simply because the "crimes" committed by the Catholic Church appear to be more heinious than the ones committed by the Orthodx Church. That makes no sense at all, many Eastern Catholics who suffered due to the persecution inflicted by the Orthodox Church would strongly disagree with you as well.

The Pope has no need to apologize for papal infallibility, indulgences, Immaculate Conception, purgatory, etc., because these are truths revealed by God to His Church. These doctrines the Orthodox Churches will believe in when Eastern Orthodoxy accepts the fullness of faith that is the Catholic faith.

Our Lord Himself established the papacy to be the earthly shepard of the Church; the first pope being St. Peter. Before the Schism of 1054, the Pope of Rome had "primacy of honor" over the patriarchates of Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalam. Do you really believethat
God would allow His Church led by the Pope of Rome to fall into errors and heresies only after a thosand years? That does not make any sense.

No other Christian Church can claim to be as universal as the Catholic Church, incorporating people from all races, ethnicities, and liturgical traditions. No other Christian Church has done more missionary work than the Catholic Church. No other Christian Church has a leader who has strongly voiced against the evils in today's society(abortion, wars, hunger, poverty, sexual liberties) than the Catholic Church.

Your intent to overlook the crimes committed by the Orthodox Church towards Eastern Catholics is reflective of the refusal of Eastern Orthodox patriarchs to apologize for the behavior of its faithful towards Eastern Catholics.



[This message has been edited by Byzantino (edited 03-20-2000).]

Byzantino,

I really can't speak for the Orthodox, but I think you're deluded if you think they'll accept papal infallibility and indulgences. I don't even know why our hierarchs accept them. If we have the same doctrines on indulgences and purgatory as Rome, then all we are is RCs in (eastern) drag. What those Latin doctrines show is that when you try to breathe with one lung, you become oxygen deprived and say all sorts of nutty things.

Rob,

�The Pope should have been specific to whom he was asking for forgiveness rather blantly admitting an act of public contrition on behalf of all the "sons and daughters of the church." This public act of contrition is no different when Orthodox bishops and priests during divine liturgy ask forgiveness from the entire Church.�

Elias: Then the Orthodox bishops and priests are just as pitiful and lacking in itemizing their sins. So why should the Pope of Rome be more specific and the Orthodox not? Special treatment?


�Repentance is a must as well as seeking forgiveness from the inflicted and persecuted. The Crusades are still fresh in the minds of Orthodox Christians and Muslims and Jews.�

Elias: This is sad. Do the Orthodox still have possession of Hagia Sophia? Is the confiscation of Orthodox churches (and their destruction) still fresh on the Orthodox mind? How many Patriarchs were killed by the Muslims? Yet the pitiful Orthodox don�t demand the same specific confession from the Muslims. They even build mosques in their monasteries! Singling out one man is a great revelation of the SPECIFIC hatred you and other Orthodox have for the Pope. This is sad.


�The theological manipulations of Holy Tradition by Rome against Orthodoxy continue.�

Elias: Against Orthodoxy? Rome continued its Tradition for 1000 years without Orthodoxy so how did they do all of this against them if they were never on their minds in the first place.


�I sincerely feel that the repentance of the Papacy can be the beginning of a sincere relationship.�

Elias: Actually, I get the feeling you�d rather have him kiss your bu-.


�Rome needs to be more honest about her historical existence��

Elias: As honest as Orthodox heirarchs who cooperated with the Communists in taking Greek Catholic property? I�m still waiting for their apology and the return of many free church building thanks to the commies.


�The reason is that the Orthodox Church is infallible and not the bishop alone which by the way the doctrine of Papal Infallibility is an error.�

Elias: The Catholic Church teaches that Infallibility is also within an Ecumenical Council! In fact, Vatican II even teaches that certain items have to be corrected at an Ecumenical Council. Orthodoxy just wants Rome to drop everything and become Orthodox.


�The Roman Catholic atrocities occurred because she left the Orthodox fold.�

Elias: Not! Atrocities occurred because of the sickness of sin. We are all apt for sin � even the Orthodox. They are not immaculately conceived, ya know.


�The Papal repentance alone is not enough.�

Elias: But you just wrote that repentance is a must. What else is there?


�The use of the Bread Alone in the Eucharist is not enough.�

Elias: The Roman Catholics use both bread and wine. Where have you been?


�Maybe Rome has realized that it cant do everything alone which alienated the Orthodox Church in the first place as well as created the Protestant Reformation.�

Elias: The same goes for the Orthodox. They can�t even have an Ecumenical Council without Rome. Why did the Orthodox Church create the Old Believer Movement? Why did they allow St. Peter the Great to manipulate Orthodox church structures? And lastly, I know of only ONE Ukrainian Catholic Church, but how many Ukrainian Orthodox Churches are there? I lost count after ONE.

Elias

Salam Leejamee'kum,
Again I must stress the truth that the Orthodox Church does not teach or permit persecution and lies that are contrary to the Gospel. However, since Rome left Orthodoxy and declared its independence from Holy Tradition she has but experienced chaos and inflicted much pain on herself as well as on non-Roman Catholics. In regards to the pain Orthodoxy had to endure Catholicism cannot be equated to the same level. The communist controlled Russian Orthodox Church was no longer Orthodox. Its actions speak loud and clear for herself. Why should the Churches of Orthodoxy around the world be held responsible that was anti-Christian? If those people were of an Orthodox background but were practicing anti-Christian, do you truly believe that this is the truth that Orthodoxy promotes? Certainly not! We are all equals before the throne of God, unworthy servants. Is Orthodoxy found in sinful actions? Absolutely not! Why are you wasting time finding wrong with Orthodoxy when it is those who were anti-Christians and anti-Orthodox?
I would like to take this time to let every one know that I DO NOT HATE THE POPE as some of you have insinuated. I pray for his well-being and for the salvation of mankind. I do not accept Catholicism but that does not mean that I behoover a grudge agianst Roman or Byzantine Catholics. I am very privilged to be allowed to post my views on a Byzantine forum. Besides I just married a Roman Catholic a month ago in my Church. Some of you people need to read the history of both Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches in light of Holy Tradition. I will pray for your return to Orthodoxy especially the Melikites.

In Christ,
Robert Sweiss

Robert,

Once again you avoid answering the SPECIFIC questions. Yet you challenge the Catholic Church to ask forgiveness for SPECIFIC sins. I am still waiting for you to stop reading your personalized missionary tracts you have memorized and answer the questions I posted to you. Thank you.

Elias

Laudetur Jesus Christus!
Dear Robert,
I'm very amazed at your ability to avoid answering clearly defined questions.
Pope asked forgivness for the sins committed by catholics throghout centuries, but I don't find it proper to demand apologies for their sins from the very people He just asked.
So in my opinion this topic should be posted by a non-catholic, but considering your extremly unfair opinion I feel forced to reply.
Try to imagine that exactly according to the lines of Your defence of Orthodoxy, some catholics defend Catholicism and strongly oppose Pope for his recent action. Your texts would be very useful for these apologets, if only they change "orthodoxy" for "catholicism" and "orthodox" for "catholic".
Concerning ROC I have one question. Did any of the autocephalous, orthodox Churches, Your Antiochene Patriarchate including, break community with ROC between 1944 and 1991?
I wish You and Your wife all the best, i pray for You and I hope that Your love will change your anticatholic feelings.
Yours in Christ
piotr c

Rob,

Oh, BTW, how many Russian Orthodox Churches are there? Does ROCOR consider itself the True Russian Church? Do all Russian(ized) Orthodox Churches consider the Czar a saint? I was just wondering. There is a lot I would like to understand about Orthodoxy. Maybe you can teach me about the Tradition of overlapping church jurisdictions of the same church tradition and why Orthodoxy fell away from the rule of one bishop in a territory in the United States. How many overlapping Orthodox jurisdictions are ther in the United States now? Teach me. Thanks.

Elias

Elias,

Did you really mean to ask about jurisdictions?

How many jurisdictions are there in Pittsburgh? There's the RC diocese. There's the Byzantine Metroplia of Pittsburgh. Who are the Melkites in Pittsburgh canonically accountable to? What about the Maronites? What about the Ukranians? What about the Romanians?

They may get along better, but canonically, it's no different than the Orthodox, unless all the rest are really just RCs with bells and smells.

Moronikus,

Yes, I know. The point I was trying to make was that there are some Orthodox who claim that only the Roman Church is apt to allowing innovations. Yet the Orthodox also have overlapping jurisdictions which, I believe, goes against the ORTHODOX rule of one bishop/one territory. So what do we make of the multiple Orthodox jurisdictions in this country if this reality ignores proper Orthodox ecclesial praxis? Of course, America is a land of multiple identities, cultures, peoples, etc. But recently there has been talk of merging the Orthodox Churches into one mega-jurisdiction in order to comply with the Orthodox rule of one bishop/one territory. Here is another problem: There is also present the Roman jurisdiction. Who has the right to be that one bishop/one territory? Russia is trying to make this a reality, especially with Christian evangelicals preying on their people for converts. Is multiple jurisdictions a faulty practice? Both the Catholics and the Orthodox practice it. This is my point and I thank you for your examples of the Catholics.

Elias

Ya sayid Elias,
Your questions should be given to one of my Sunday school kids to answer rather than me give you the answers. At any rate, I believe you went on a tangent and are trying to divert from the topic. I have made many written posts to the questions you asked and you owe it to yourself to find them. Evasion or bombardment are not techniques I use as you have committed. Look up my posts. I have no desire to repeat what I have previously posted or this good topic will become diverted with your rhetorics. The Uniate Church is a problem that offends and abandons the teachings of Holy Tradition. Catholicism and anything that is in communion with it I have placed on the endangered species list. I do know that most of the Roman Catholic Churches in Chicago utilize the Bread Alone in their version of Eucharistic worship. They do have the wine available but laity does not partake of it. When handing their wafer eucharist, the priests or their eucharistic ministers say, "The Body of Christ." What happened to the "Blood of Christ",Mr. Elias? Avoidance to present and to state the "Blood of Christ," to the laity is a violation of Holy Tradition and you are in communion with this. However you would come back and say,"Oh, that's okay because that is their tradition and we have our own or that the Catechism #1390 justifies this atrocity." How do you explain this slap-in-the-face of Holy Tradition? If it is okay by you then why don't the Melikites use the UNLEAVENED BREAD ALONE in your Eucharistic services since Rome knows and practices best. Rome needs to repent of this wicked violation of Holy Tradition especially for inventing eucharistic ministers amongst the laity, female and male. It is no secret that I do have contempt for Catholicism and Associates. However, I do believe you can be saved if you return to the fullness of the Orthodox Church. I do not cast any sort of judgement on you for God is worthy of handling that position. I will never stop with my evangelization of Catholics and Protestants to Orthodoxy. I am a nice guy once you get to know me in person. I do have Melikite relatives that I am working on and it is just a matter of time once they realize the violations of Catholicism against Holy Tradition.

Happy Fasting

While Robert is certainly welcome to present his views, it should be always be noted that his views are far different from those of Orthodoxy. When I want to know what Orthodoxy believes, I look to the canonical, ancient patriarchates, to what is commonly held among them.

I do not intend to be drawn into a polemical discussion during this season of the Great Fast, but I would like to encourage everyone to put aside the polemics for the moment and consider participating in the discussions in "The Eastern Road" forum. Brendan Ross has several posts that provide much for us to reflect on. Is anyone here interested in growing spiritually? Or are polemics the center of our faith?

Rob,

Wafer Eucharist? I sense an inkling of the derogatory here. Read the Gospel of Luke and Acts. You will see that the author(s) mention the 'breaking of the bread' and rarely refer to the wine. Not to give the Latins credence to their once bread-only practice, but it interesting anyways. BTW, many Orthodox and Byzantine Catholics give wine-eucharist only to infants since infants cannot receive the Body of Christ at that age. Presanctified eucharist (Body only) is reserved for liturgies during weekdays of Lent. Ordinary wine is then added.

Are you not a member of a canonical Orthodox Church?

Elias


[This message has been edited by Elias (edited 03-22-2000).]

Laudetur Jesus Christus!
Elias, I thank you for explainig latin position on eucharist.
Robert, up untill now I didn't expect You to avoid uneasy questions. Answer my question please, if I'm to preserve my opinion about You as honest antagonist.
In Christ
piotr c

Dear piotrc,
What question(s) are you referring to as many unnecessary ones have been listed ? I will tackle ones that should be related to the stated topic. However, if you feel the need to begin a new topic I will be there. In regards to Papal apologies, I am waiting for a Papal apology for the violations against Holy Traditions. But I think I won't get one because of Rome's arrogancy and pride. I could be wrong but I shall wait and see. However, I have a great question for you. How is it that the Holy Spirit can abide in the Roman Catholic Church during and after heinous atrocities committed against Orthodoxy let alone against other peoples? Did the Holy Spirit encourage the Crusades, the Inquistions, partake of the Jewish Holocaust? Is this the Rome you know? The only church I have known to make an apology for recorded atrocites is your church. For your information, Orthodoxy has not ever committed such things and there are no apologies to be made. I certainly can understand that guilt has been eating away at your church and the Papal need to return to Orthodoxy. Could Rome be suffering a financial deficit and trying to promote indulgences to make more liras(money) for "original guilt"?

Dear Moose,
Many of my views are common amongst Orthodox people, whether canonical or uncanonical. I know of our previous encounters that you have stated that my views are far different than what the Orthodox believe which is not entirely true. I will admit my stance is quite harsh towards Catholicism and affilaites however I offer no apologies. The Roman Church has been set on fire and fuming smoke. It is no wonder or surprise that we watch the news to hear the Pope ask for forgiveness.

Rob,

The Pope has done what many other bishops cannot or will not do - ask forgiveness. Only those with a cold heart and who think they can throw the first stone need not ask for forgiveness. Obviously, you imagine all the Orthodox bishops to be immuned from sin. Is this a hint that you have a latent belief in the Immaculate Conception, albeit one only for Orthodox bishops and not the Mother of God? FYI: I don't accept this Western doctrine and its Augustinian error, but I think you do. Maybe that is why the clergy's request for forgiveness on Forgiveness Sunday is only a 'symbolic' act.

When will the communist-controlled Russian Church give back church property stolen from the Greek Catholics in Eastern Europe during World War II?

When will the Orthodox Church issue condemnations of the Muslims and ask forgiveness for their crimes against Christianity? Let's be fair, Rob. If you can demand so much on a Sister Church, then demand the same on the heathen.

Are you canonical Orthodox? I hear ROCOR is to the Orthodox Church as SSPX is to the Roman Catholic Church. Is this true?


Elias


[This message has been edited by Elias (edited 03-22-2000).]

Salam ya sayid Elias,
I bet you are a funny guy just from the way you phrase things. At any rate, for the Pope to ask for forgiveness I must conclude that it was the Papacy which cast the first stone. History does not lie. History also reveals the fallibility of Orthodox and Roman Catholic bishops. However, Holy Tradition is what differentiates our churches. Orthodoxy does not tamper and distort Apotolic revealed truths but we all know that Rome makes its case very special by becoming the exception. Rome is so special that she has the unique authority to trample down on Holy Tradition defined and understood in Orthodoxy. Rome would come back and say that is not true but we do know the truth about her cover-ups. The problem is quite simply: she has been infected with pride and over time developed a papal mindset alien to Orthodoxy.
In regards to a communist-controlled Russian Church I don't know of any today. I would like to know where I can find one---that would be interesting. You know very well that Catholicism is not welcomed in Russia and that there is no room for two. Whatever happened in the past with the way the communists treated Orthodox and Catholics is a sad and terrible historical affair which Orthodoxy is not to be blamed.
I do not believe that it will be necessary to issue acts of condemnation upon the Muslims unless you want to see a bloodbath. I don't thrive on viewing killings nor would I like to see a religious upheavel occur in my Middle Eastern village. I support the Pope in continuing to ask for forgiveness and to come home to Orthodoxy. That is all.
It would be interesting for you to hear of condemnations against the Muslims and await their reactions.

[This message has been edited by Robert Sweiss (edited 03-22-2000).]

I know both sides will probably pounce on me for saying this, but we need to separate the theological doctrines from the occasional stupidity exhibited through history by priests, bishop, and patriarchs. Sentiments against the sons of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob have never been "officially" assigned a place in the doctrine of the Church, but both Orthodox and Catholic Churches have either stood by dumb or tacitly encouraged pogroms and persecutions at times as it has done for other groups considered on the outside.

I do believe in "love thy neighbor as thyself" but occasionally (more than I'd like to admit) I do lash out in a very un-Christian fashion. It doesn't mean I believe in ripping people or stopped believing in "love thy neighbor." It just means sometimes I'm a blockhead.

If we insist on enumerating all the individual actions that have agrieved the other we'll get nowhere fast. Things have been done on both sides to offend the other. Eventually there does need to be a mutual reproachment where everyone says "sorry for the past, let's move forward." Certainly not repenting for sins is bad, but so is holding onto past offenses. We need to forgive whether forgiveness is asked or not.

"... there does need to be a mutual reproachment where everyone says "sorry for the past, let's move forward." "

I agree. And I can enumerate many more sad events from BOTH sides. As a uniate, I get it from both ends. Yet this post began with the point you just made. The Pope apologized and Mr. Rob expects more. What more Rob would like to see is beyond what asking forgiveness is all about. Rob wants reparations for perceived injustices of the past. I cannot stand responsible for the actions of someone thirty generations ago, but Christ was sacrificed and died for our sins. For us! We are all sinners and it disturbs me when one states that he or she and their church community is without sin. This is a lie. Christ challenged those self-righteous folks by writing their sins in the dirt. The oldest left first. Rob forgets this story as he places heavy demands on the Pope. I sense he failed to listen to the Pope's words.

It is always easier to ask forgiveness but very difficult to forgive.

Thanks for your encouraging words of 'moving forward.' Many can get stuck in the past - still bitching about the sack of Constantinople by Western Christians, the confiscation of Hagia Sophia by the Muslims, and other such things. Can we turn back the clock and erase all the bad events of the past? I don't think so. It is water under the bridge.

My comments and questions about the illegal confiscation of Greek Catholic properties in Eastern Europe by the Orthodox in collaboration with the Communists is still valid. I was wondering if the Orthodox participants on this board would be so kind to suggest a remedy to this painful situation? Is there a need for asking forgiveness here? Is there a need to forgive here?


Elias

I am impressed and in agreement with Bill Mo's post. I would be the first to forgive provided there is sincere repentance and justice for unacknowledged, past sins committed in the name of Christ and His Church. One issue I would like to make clear is on the true belief upheld by Holy Tradition versus sinful believers. Normally one would expect a true believer to live and act according to Holy Tradition. Abnormally, we are hypocrites and first among sinners because we claim to live according to Christ taught in Holy Tradition(Orthodoxy). The hypocrisy is not founded in Holy Tradition but in the absence of sincere, genuine communion with Holy Tradition. Orthodoxy is not founded by the Devil but is given to us by the Holy Spirit. That means the beliefs and actions are one and in accord with Holy Tradition. History is full of recorded shame and dishonor for Holy Tradition by all. Much sin is committed by fellow Orthodox, Catholics, Protestants, etc. The one thing that has not changed or left us since Adam is sin. We continue to struggle with our sins and with the sins of others. My grievance is not about sin but about tampering and ignoring Holy Tradition which is a greater sin. Holy Tradition does not teach sin but to defeat sin. Hence, the process of theosis. I cannot perceive of a harmful,systematic practiced unbelief taught according to the Holy Tradition of Orthodoxy. I can point out the vast amount of injustices committed by bishops and priests that have harmed their own flocks and have disgraced Holy Tradition of Orthodoxy. However this is not the fault of Orthodoxy but the self-centeredness of fallen man. Take the Patriarch Diadorus of Jerusalem and his Brotherhoodlums: they may pray and teach Orthodoxy but are not living Orthodoxy because of the crimes they committ against the Orthodox Church which are many. Keeping this in mind one needs to remember that these sinners are not reflections of the truths in Holy Tradition. Unfortunately, non-Orthodox Christians see this as the fault of Orthodoxy when it is not. I do not defend a heretic or a criminal when his or her actions speak louder than words be they Orthodox or non-Orthodox. There was never a plot conspired by the Orthodox Church to systematically destroy Eastern Catholics. When I say the Orthodox Church I do not mean the Russian Church alone but all the ecumenical Churches of Orthodoxy. Rome has created for herself milestones throughout her unjust history such as Crusades, Inquistions, etc that are not taught,never committed and unfounded in the name of Orthodoxy. Worse is the separation of Rome from Orthodoxy and the consequences that were later to develop over time and history in terms of theology and Holy Tradition. One can quarrel day and night over injustices whether committed by past Popes or corrupt Patriarchs. We all need to find justice from sin by living Holy Tradition rather than speaking of and living sin. As many of you may know the Bible has recorded problems with particular churches that St. Paul had to confront. If a particular church such as Corinths reflected poorly of her Orthodoxy that did not necessarily mean that something is wrong with Orthodoxy which was the accepted norm. The problem stems from sin or the lack of Orthodoxy. Isn't it ironic that Orthodoxy has not had an Eight Ecumencial Council and will not have one without Rome but on the other hand Rome proceeded to have 21 councils and has labeled them ecumenical! Who is showing who respect? This can only mean to be that Rome is under respectful consideration when she decides to enter the Orthodox fold once again. Will that happen any time soon? I don't know and I would venture to say no. It is not because I don't want unity. It is because there is no agreement over what constitutes Orthodoxy for Rome and the issue of Papal supremacy.
I don't think I am asking much when a papal confession is in demand for manipulations of and to Holy Tradition. Right is right and wrong is wrong. Am I right or wrong? May God lead the Pope back to Orthodoxy.

Laudetur Jesus Christus!
Robert is accusing me of asking questions not related to the topic.I'm sorry to say but it seems to me that Robert's anticatholic fewer is slowly darkening his mind. So I will recolect main lines of this topic. Let's start with the first part of the title.
>>The Catholic Church has apologized.<<
Of course Robert is fully entitled not to accept this apologies; even to say that they are founded on hypocrisy. But one thing has to be stated: pope asked forgiveness not for what Catholic Church teaches or what Catholics belive, but for what they have done in the past and in present times also.
Now the other part: >>when will the Orthodox Churches?<<. This was developed by Byzantino in his starting post:
>>My question is when will the Orthodox Churches-specifically the Russian Orthodox Church- apologize for the way it persecuted the Eastern Catholic Churches? Since many of you are already familiar with the history of how Byzantine Catholics were persecuted by the Orthodox Churches, I won't go into details, but is a fact that the Orthodox Churches deliberately at certain times in history(especially during the communist control of Russia and Eastern Europe)persecuted the Byzantine Catholic Church.<<
After launching a lot of anticatholic calumnies, forced by Elias, Robert gave following answer:
>>The communist controlled Russian Orthodox Church was no longer Orthodox. Its actions speak loud and clear for herself. Why should the Churches of Orthodoxy around the world be held responsible that was anti-Christian? If those people were of an Orthodox background but were practicing anti-Christian, do you truly believe that this is the truth that Orthodoxy promotes? Certainly not! We are all equals before the throne of God, unworthy servants. Is Orthodoxy found in sinful actions? Absolutely not!<<
Surely nor I, nor Byzantino, nor Elias blame orthodox faith of promoting persecutions. Byzantino asked apologies not for what Orthodox Churches teach but for what they have done, and I appreciat that You condemned atrocities commited against eastern Catholics as anti-Christian.
For the status of Russian Church under soviet regime, which you declared as not being orthodox, I asked you question, not answerd by you until now:
>>Did any of the autocephalous, orthodox Churches, Your Antiochene Patriarchate including, break community with ROC between 1944 and 1991?<<
Of course this is rhetorical question, because based on the facts answer is "NOT".
So, if you and all canonical Orthodox Churches were in ecllesiastical communion with Church commiting anti-Christian crimes, which speak loud and clear for themselvs, are you not guilty of grave sin? And since these persecutions were directed against neigbours, also in very literally meaning, shoudn't the sinners ask forgiveness?
In Christ,
piotr c

Robert's post and others make me sick.

I want to know when we're all going to do the Christian thing and forgive. For most of us, our grandparents weren't even born when supposed atrocities occured let alone anything personally happening to us. Give it up. Let it go. By holding on to it, we're mostly hurting ourselves. I doubt if Mother Teresa of Calcutta or Mother Maria Skobtsova had enough time to hate or to be bitter. They were too busy living the gospel.

Moronikus,

My relatives had their church taken away when they were made Orthodox. The Soviet police assisted the Moscow Patriarchate in taking the properties where the Cathedral of St. George stood. The Russian government held a puppet Church council of priests (quickly ordained bishops) in 1946 at the L'viv Cathedral to accept Orthodoxy and liquidate the Greek Catholic Church. The 'real' Greek Catholic bishops were all in prison.

Can we brush all of this aside, Moronikus? With forgiveness comes metanoia. Will the Orthodox recognize their collaboration with the Communists and hand over these properties which rightfully belonged to Greek Catholics?

Rob implies that those souls in Orthodoxy are without blemish - more immaculate than the Theotokos. Yet how many Greek Catholic bishops were murdered, poisoned, and suffered in the Gulags of the former Soviet empire for the faith because, unlike many Orthodox bishops, they refused to cooperate with the enemy, the Liar of Lies.

Where did the 2,000 parishes in Western Ukraine and Transcarpathia go? To the Orthodox. When Dubcek allowed the Greek Catholic Church to surface, the Russian Patriarch was angered. In cooperation with the patriarch the Soviet government began persecuting the Church again.

My family lived through this while remaining Greek Catholic. It is harsh words to hear the Greek Patriarch suggest a "Final Solution" to our uniate Church. Is this Christian? Should we ignore this attitude? Many in Orthodoxy have already tried in collaboration with the Communists to liquidate our church. Some still suggest we just walk away from it. How would you like them for neighbors?

It is one thing to ask forgiveness for things done or said in the past. It is another thing to simply ignore present injustices.


Elias

Dear piotrc,
I feel that you are reading right through my posts which may be the fault of your ignorance and what you want to believe. I repeat again that I am not anti-Catholic. I am anti-Catholicism for breeding lies and exagerations and atrocities. I am also against those who portray Orthodoxy in a negative fashion and accuse the Orthodox Church of the devils work. It is much easier for some to believe the devil than the truth of Christ embedded in His Orthodox Church. I am against the evil forces practiced by those who said they were Orthodox when in fact there is nothing Orthodox about them but a baptismal certificate. Atrocities committed by The Catholic Church were sanctioned by it. As for the Orthodox Churches there is no such actions. There was not any collective effort by the Orthodox Churches to committ crimes, acts of persecutions, and justify killings in comparison to Rome's teachings of "Just War." I cannot speak or even defend the heinious crimes committed by the Church of the KGB, the church of the devil. One thing that was ignored was the pain and suffering that Russian Orthodox had undergone. Why do you purposely ignore mention of the 20 million Orthodox martyrs and the destruction of their churches? Are the Eastern Catholics the only people on earth to have suffered and lost much of their possessions? Your posts of questions remind of a Zionist Jew who keeps screaming anti-Semitism and ignores the millions of non-Jews that lost their lives and possessions. I do not know specifically the facts rgarding the relationship of the Antiochian Patriarch and the ROC between 1944 and 1991. It is an interesting question that I will look into. My Patriarchy is that of Jerusalem but currently it is under siege by a corrupt Greek hierarchy. Does this mean Orthodoxy is the source of this corruption? If you really studied Orthodoxy you would not speak the language you posted. Was the corupt Church of Corinths the fault of the Church of the Apostles? No, not anymore than the corruption of the KGB Church or the Jerusalem Church. Your unusual mindset has labeled me at fault for situations that I have no control over. You have the audacity to accuse of me of your doctrine of "original guilt". I think you better sit down with someone knowledgeable before you try to take another wack at me or anyone else and have them educate you on Orthodoxy in depth.

Rob,


�I feel that you are reading right through my posts which may be the fault of your ignorance and what you want to believe. I repeat again that I am not anti-Catholic. I am anti-Catholicism for breeding lies and exagerations and atrocities.�

Elias: Then give us an example of not reading right through posts and answer my questions. You have ignored them quite well.


�I am also against those who portray Orthodoxy in a negative fashion and accuse the Orthodox Church of the devils work.�

Elias: What about those who portray Catholicism, especially Roman Catholicism, in a negative fashion?


�Atrocities committed by The Catholic Church were sanctioned by it.�

Elias: As much as the atrocities of the communist-infested Russian Orthodox Church.


�As for the Orthodox Churches there is no such actions. There was not any collective effort by the Orthodox Churches to committ crimes, acts of persecutions, and justify killings in comparison to Rome's teachings of "Just War."�

Elias: They just collaborated with the Soviets in taking illegal possession of Greek Catholic Churches. Let�s not forget how the Eastern Church was able to force Orthodox teaching by the might of the Empire. This was called the Symphony of Church and State. When the Eastern Church doesn�t have a State to back them up they become peaceful and even Christian. But watch out when a State government begins to use them like in Russia where no other Churches are going to be allowed. If some churches aren�t being martyred for their faith, there are other Churches using the State to martyr others. It goes both ways, Rob.


�I cannot speak or even defend the heinious crimes committed by the Church of the KGB, the church of the devil. One thing that was ignored was the pain and suffering that Russian Orthodox had undergone. Why do you purposely ignore mention of the 20 million Orthodox martyrs and the destruction of their churches? Are the Eastern Catholics the only people on earth to have suffered and lost much of their possessions?�

Elias: So you DO admit that the Eastern Catholics were martyred too! Many tend to ignore the martyrs in the Roman Catholic Church too. Why do you call it the Church of the KGB? It was the Orthodox Church which called upon the Soviets to help them take Eastern Catholic Churches during WWII by holding mock synods to �officially� re-establish communion with the Moscow Patriarch and to �officially� liquidate the Greek Catholic Church. The KGB was not a church, but the Russian Orthodox Church was.


�My Patriarchy is that of Jerusalem but currently it is under siege by a corrupt Greek hierarchy. Does this mean Orthodoxy is the source of this corruption? If you really studied Orthodoxy you would not speak the language you posted. Was the corupt Church of Corinths the fault of the Church of the Apostles? No, not anymore than the corruption of the KGB Church or the Jerusalem Church.�

Elias: And this was the point I was trying to make. Was the corrupt Church of Rome the fault of the Church of Peter? You want to throw out the baby with the bathwater in the case of Rome�s corruptions, but remind us of the 20 million Orthodox martyrs. You want it one way. You want more than forgiveness for the sins of Roman Catholics. Maybe another crucifixion to take away the sins? Have you ever noticed that EVERY church is corrupt? This is because the wages of sin is death and corruption. We have to learn to live with it, Rob. We can�t become some esoteric Amish-type Orthodox Church hiding from OTHER people�s sins. We have to have faith that Christ conquered death by his death. Resorting to some Docetist Ecclesiology is escape-ism. The bathwater will always be dirty.


�Your unusual mindset has labeled me at fault for situations that I have no control over. You have the audacity to accuse of me of your doctrine of "original guilt". I think you better sit down with someone knowledgeable before you try to take another wack at me or anyone else and have them educate you on Orthodoxy in depth.�

Elias: Did Pope John Paul II have control over what happened at the Spanish Inquisition? Were Orthodox Christians (mostly Greek Catholic) around the turn of the 20th century liable for Slavery before the Civil War? Yet you want MORE from the Pope than his asking for forgiveness.

Elias



[This message has been edited by Elias (edited 03-24-2000).]

Dear Elias,
No one is immune from sin. The past and present history of Rome contains theological, ecclessialogical, liturgical violations that oppose Holy Tradition. We can speak about martyrs from the Roman & Eastern Catholics as well as the Orthodox. I don't believe anyone takes pride and joy in the killings of people despite what religious affilation they may be. My entire argumentation dealt with mainly the violations by Rome against Orthodox Holy Tradition. Rome has changed much that one wonders if she is the Church of the Apostles. We do know she was at one point and she needs to return home. Enough messing around and return home to the Father's house. The one issue I would like to see resolved is Rome's return to Orthodoxy. As for the reply you raised about the atrocities of the communist-infested Russian Orthodox Church name all the Orthodox Churches that collaberated with the Soviets? As for Rome, when she speaks and does something out of line she speaks for all of her churches. This is not the case with universal Churches of Orthodoxy. As you may know our Orthodox Churches are of a conciliar nature unlike the papacy. The papal monarchy does not work in Orthodoxy. If you know that the "communist-infested Russian Orthodox Church" was possessed and occupied by an evil spirit what makes it Christian or Orthodox? Is it its structure? Or is it its function? Or is it its structure without the Christian function? You know very well there was nothing Orthodox about what the communist did but instead you insisted that this is the fault of all the Orthodox Churches,the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. These uniate churches were at one time Orthodox until Rome came from the back door and stole them away. I am not condoning what the KGB church did and it was wrong as it was wrong for the uniates to break with the Orthodox Church. Your statement about me wanting "more than forgiveness for the sins of Roman Catholics" does not coincide with my understanding. The Papacy needs to confess that it abandon Holy Tradition and Orthodoxy in general. I do expect from Rome, the Vatican, the papacy to apologize to her Orthodox bretherns for leaving the fold as the prodigal son. I pray that she may return to her proper senses and come back to Orthodoxy as if she was returning to her Father's house. This act of confession is what is needed for the reconcilation process to take place. It does not make any sense to argue who committed more sin. It would make more sense to begin the reconcilation process and to attain the fullness of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church as understood in Orthodoxy.
I don't believe that my request of the Pope in furthering the reconcilation process is much to ask for. It sounds like you're saying, "Okay he's said he was sorry and thats all he needs to say or do." I don't believe the process ends there but begins there. It must be taken further in depth because time as alienated the churches. Eccleseastical, theological and liturgical issues must be resolved. What that means is a return to Holy Tradition. My vision is to the Kingdom of God on earth when when become one. The Pope has the most responsibility, being once "first amongst equals," to make the return to Orthodoxy. How soon will that happen? My guess is that this will not happen overnight.

I think the main problems here are that Robert is applying different standards to the two Churches, that he considers the "movement of the Catholic Church away from Orthodoxy" to be something for which the Catholic Church needs to apologize, and that he is not clear on Catholic history or on the apology rendered by the Pope.

First of all, Robert separates any organization which committed a crime from the Orthodox Church. Thus he says it was not the Russian Orthodox Church which did this or that, it was the KGB church in disguise as the ROC. The Pope, as I understand it, was asking forgiveness for wrongs committed by representatives of the Church or in the name of the Church, thus taking that much responsibility for wrongs which may have been committed without the awareness, much less approval of, the Church. Robert does not give the kind of leeway to the Catholic Church as he does to the Orthodox Church.

Secondly, what Robert thinks of the Catholic Church is what Catholics think about the Orthodox Church, except that the Catholic attitude tends to be sorrow at the Schism rather than anger towards the Orthodox. Robert's attitude is that the Catholics need to simply convert to Orthodox; the Pope's attitude is a dialog between the two Churches. (Even if we were to take what Robert says as true, how would this conversion of the Catholic Church take place without any dialog between the Churches? Refusal to dialog seems to indicate something other than a simple belief in one's own correctness.)

Finally, Robert seems to think that the Crusades were a sinful undertaking, but I would remind him that had they not been undertaken, the Moslems would still have complete control over the Holy Lands, probably Europe, and who knows where they would have stopped? What does Robert recommend? That we simply allow bullies to overrun us willy-nilly whenever they so desire? And the Inquisition was 1. greatly exaggerated by the Protestants and 2. necessary to weed out heretical teachings, espionage, and treason.

PS. I have not figured out why Robert equates the Catholic understanding of the Eucharist with the Protestant understanding of communion, given that for most Protestants, there is no similarity at all (they do not believe in the True Presence), or little (they believe that Christ is present in a limited way). Only the Orthodox and Catholics have a common view of the Eucharist.

I had the opportunity this past week of watching some of EWTN's coverage of Pope John Paul II's pilgrimage to the Holy Land. One could not help but to see that he is led directly by the Holy Spirit and that he was clearly laying foundations for Christians to reach out to one another to heal past wounds and then work together to again become one. He also reached out to non-Christians to witness our love for Christ as well as our respect for them and for their faith traditions. There is no other earthly leader in the world - religious or political - that could accomplish what he has accomplished during his reign. Something quite miraculous for a Church that Robert would describe as 'without grace'.

Dear Philothea,
Your remarks are a form of exageration not substantiated by historical facts in regards to Catholicism's atrocities. The posted statements I have written are over your head. I know much about Catholic history to put you to shame but I have no intention of doing so except at your request. The standards I apply to the Orthodox and Catholic Churches are based upon Holy Tradition. I don't know what are your standards. I have been consistent in noting acknowledging problems committed by peoples of the Orthodox and Catholic religions. This has not been my real argument. What I have been arguing has been basically Catholicism's violations against Holy Tradition as understood and defined by Orthodoxy. It would be best for your salvation to come back to Orthodoxy. In regards to the Crusades in the Holy Lands they were a sinful undertaking. Only someone blind and ignorant of the circumstances would believe otherwise. I kind of wonder what life would have been like if the Moslems did take over Europe. I don't think it would have been that bad in comparison to Western Christianities crimes against humanity. The only bully I have known in the study of history is Rome herself. Rome was the aggressor because she allowed herself to be overrun by barbaric peoples and violate Holy Tradition. One finally note about the Eucharist. The doctrine of Transubstantion is limited and has cataphatic approach which is opposite to the Orthodox understanding. I really don't seem much difference between you and the Reformist Church.

Robert,

Your note seems to contain some inconsistencies. For example, you say: Might I suggest that you have applied your understanding of those traditions? However, what you are saying is that you have decided the Catholic Church is wrong because it's wrong. While it is certainly true that many Catholic practices come from the development of Tradition it is equally true that they are not inconsistent with Tradition.

You continue: which you immediately contradict by saying: Either you are saying the Moslems were not barbaric or that had Europe been taken over by the Moslems Christianity would have flourished. Neither are consistent with history. Look at the sad state of Alexandria, one of Christianity's shining lights in the first 300 year.

Finally you write: Would you care to explain what you mean here?

Fr. Deacon Edward

Dear in Christ Robert,

First of all I should like to recall to mind previous suggestions to you about aiming a verbal barb which is personal, such as intimating that your knowledge of a subject is far above another's understanding. While your words do not call someone stupid, we can all read that meaning there. I am sure that we can all carry on lively and respectful discussions here without reverting to sophomoric namecalling.


Secondly, I would like to take issue with a statement I hope that you made flippantly and would reconsider, supposing that life would have been easier for Christians in Europe under the Moslems than under Western authority. Would you care to ask the Serbs that question? For over 500 years Orthodoxy in Serbia was clandestine and untold numbers of martyrs were created by their adherance to the Orthodox Faith under great pressure from their Moslem rulers.

Normally you have chosen your words carefully, so this latest statement of yours surprises me. Either you are not as erudite as you seem or purport to be, or you succumb to a weakness of hyperbole in your argument. Either case...please take care in the future. I do not want to see a good discussion devolve into a sandbox tantrum.

unworthy servant,

+Kyrill

Dear Fr. Kyrill,
God bless ya, I always love to hear from you. I purposely wrote the statement to elicit a response. I am glad that my statment has caught someone's attention. I seriously wouldn't have wanted or want to see Muslim rule in Europe as it was imposed upon the forgotten Christians of the Middle East. I believe if Orthodoxy was practiced by all the adherents in the Middle East the Middle East would become Christian again. That is why we have the Islamic religion in our midst. Christianity thrives on martyrdom by living the Gospel. The reason the Serbs lost Kosovo was because there is little Orthodoxy practiced. God grant the Patriarch Pavla many years for his endurance and efforts for trying to preserve and live the faith even though, generally speaking, the Serbs are nominal Christians. The Serbs of the past are not the Serbs of the present. Their forefathers had their Orthodoxy put to the test which endured the test of time until now. Maybe as Islam spreads through the West in alarming numbers it will seep and penetrate through the infrastructures of Western society and take over like a cancer. Perhaps, this is the rude awaking we will need to get us out of our comfort zones. As an Orthodox I take no pleasure in the ignorance and blasphemey of insensible Christians be they Orthodox or non-Orthodox. The truth must be spoken and seen in action or else the similiar fate of the Christians of the Middle East and Serbia will become an reenactment in Western society. I have no love for Islam and no love for watered-down, violated Christianity. I believe God has permitted Islam to flourish in our midst because we are unworthy servants and lack Orthopraxy. We do not deserve the treasures in Heaven. Serbia had an awesome history which does not currently exist at the present time. That awesome history revealed the truth of Orthodoxy through martyrdom. The fate of Orthodoxy is intrinsically tied to sacrifices and martyrdom---Christ being the perfect sacrifice. The True Faith is under persecution by those within and outside the Church. The modern-day Judas' would love to see the Church conform to earthly rather than divine standards as taught by Holy Tradition. People need to acknowledge their sins and violations of Holy Tradition if God is to acknowledge them before the dreaded Judgement Seat of Christ. Perhaps, it will take a heresy such as Islam to revive the Orthodox Faith in those lands considered at one time Orthodox. Life for a practicing Orthodox was never meant to be easy and it certainly isn't easy for me. Look at the life our Lord recorded in Scriptures. Where did He have it easy? The state of sin makes it very difficult and challenging to both preach and practice Orthodoxy with the Slanderer on our left side. Whether one lives in the East or the West, the state of sin remains. One can run but cannot hide. God knows the mind of the sinners that promote their own heresies. God loves those who keep His word as taught by Holy Tradition. Those that violate Holy Tradition teachings that are historical near to Orthodoxy would be the Roman Catholic Church under the sway of Papal Infallibility. I do not want to name the violations because I think everyone knows what I mean. At any rate, may God grant us His mercy and pray that Orthodoxy spreads rather than the lies against it.

Rob,

�You know very well there was nothing Orthodox about what the communist did but instead you insisted that this is the fault of all the Orthodox Churches,the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.�

Elias: The Orthodox cooperated with the Communists. This cooperation is not a synergy with the Holy Spirit; it was a synergy (or symphony) with an atheistic State. No Theosis here. At least the infamous Inquisition gave you a trial with a lawyer and witnesses. Hee, hee. The Orthodox just gladly occupied properties belonging to others. I wonder how far the Orthodox cooperatives would have gotten in the backwoods of Alabama?

�These uniate churches were at one time Orthodox until Rome came from the back door and stole them away.�

Elias: Stole them? Back door? Did Rome use those black helicopters too? Your assessment seems like a page taken from one of Jack Chick�s publications. The Communists must have found the same back door opened by the Orthodox, Jack Chickovsky.

�I am not condoning what the KGB church did and it was wrong as it was wrong for the uniates to break with the Orthodox Church.�

Elias: There was an element of freedom in the Union movement that was not found in the Communist/Orthodox collaboration to liquidate the Greek Catholic Church. The Rusyns first bishop was consecrated by an Orthodox bishop!!! Thank you.


Elias

Here is a section from an article from:
http://www.ukemonde.com/church/slipijhist.htm

"... at the moment of Bolshevik retreat before the Nazis, Archbishop Slipyj had been put to the wall to be shot along with others but had miraculously been freed. Now, as Metropolitan, he was to have only a few months to exercise his ministry in freedom. On 11 April 1945 the Soviet authorities arrested him along with other bishops. St. Georges's Cathedral in Lviv was searched. Imprisoned priests were told to subit to Russian Orthodoxy or be condemed as agents of "universal fascism."
When all the Ukrainian hierarchy had been seized the Moscow Patriarch Alexei directed a "pastoral letter" to the Catholic faithful telling them that their pastors had abandoned them. Three hundred courageous priests protested to Soviet Minister Molotov and demanded the release of their bishops but their demands were vain. The communists took Metropolitan Slipyj from Lviv to Kyiv, isolated him and subjected him to intensive inerrogations, mostly in the small hours, demanding that he seperate himself from the Pope and offering him the Metroplolitante of Kyiv in the Russian Church. In the desert now with Jesus he steadfastly held as did all his brother bishops.
The Soviets sentenced Metropolitan Slipyj to eight years of prison and forced labour to be served in Maklakovo, Viatka, Novosibirsk, Boimy, Peczora, Krasnojarsk, Kamczatka, Inta, Jenisseist, Potma Vortuka and Mordovia. As we think of him led away to this ordeal, we can grieve for his Church. The Russian Orthodox occupied all the Catholic parishes. Being catholic was made a crime. All eparchies, religious houses and schools were suppressed. Half of the clergy were impisoned and a fifth exiled."


Does the Orthodox Churches recognize these events?


Elias

Elias,
It is true what has happened but Orthodoxy is not to blame. I can also argue the fact that many more Orthodox than uniates suffered and became martyred under the Soviets. It is good to reveal the evil that possessed the Russian Orthodox Church. However, the evils cannot be attributed to the Ecumencial Churches of Orthodoxy. You have not provided a detailed list of all the Orthodox Churches that collaberated in the communist's scheme to rid of the Uniates by means of persecutions. It is not fair nor proper to attribute the Catholic doctrine of "Original Guilt" to Orthodoxy. Rome has yet to reveal much more confessions about her roles which violate Holy Tradition. Perhaps I need to start a new thread about the role of the Papacy's crimes against Orthodoxy and her people. The Balamand Statement is a form of Rome's confession that has shown the sheep stealing that has happened in the Middle East. Rome has taken many from the Orthodox flock. There is a Judgment Day pending! I will pray for the Uniates return home to Orthodoxy before that Day comes.

I hestitate to interject here, but I'm not so sure that the Orthodox want to get into an argument over "sheep stealing" considering the great influx of disgruntled RC's into the Orthodox fold over the past 10 - 15 years. (Something I'm sure which is, in the very least, not discouraged, but rather encouraged by the Orthodox.) Granted, this is not without its reasons considering the great upheaval that has defined much of "Boomer Catholicism" since Vatican II, but I'm sure that an honest look at the numbers (whoever keeps 'em) would demonstrate a fair number of former RC's in many local Orthodox parishes today and comparatively fewer former EO's in the local RC & BC parishes.

My two cents.

Peace and all good things,
Gordo, sfo

[This message has been edited by Dozier (edited 04-04-2000).]

"demonstrate a fair number of former RC's in many local Orthodox parishes today and comparatively fewer former EO's in the local RC & BC parishes"


Dozier,

The same cannot be said of the Eastern Catholc Churches, especially the Ruthenian and Ukrainian (or Kievan) churches. Most of Generation X went West or left church life all together. Generation IX before them was the most dysfunctional, confused and religiously uneducated - they also were the first to intermarry en masse with Roman Catholics; probably because Western gals were better looking. Yet some RCs have gone Eastern, not many Protestant have found going Eastern Catholic easy, especially if one is a clergyman. The RC Church makes it difficult for a Protestant to become a married priest in the Greek Catholic Church since 'freedom of religion' is not an option and they must go to the RC Church. Unless one is getting married and the couple, according to Latin codes, can decide for themselve which church to marry in. It only works to the benefit of the RC Church since many go and get married in the RC Church. And our bishops take it sitting down. Many children have left the Ukrainian Catholic Church because their clergy still insist in worsipping in a foreign tongue. This habit goes against the tradition of Jesus, St. Paul, Cyril & Methodius, et al in speaking the language of the people. To hell with the children; so our parishes become geriatric community centers with a nice Mass.


Elias

New Friends, I hope,

I'm actively seeking conversion and eventually the priesthood, if God is willing, in the Byzantine Rite Catholic Church. I'm a bit dismayed at the whining here. My attraction to the Byzantine Church from 27 years as a United Methodist Pastor is 1. The basic consistency of doctrine and truth. 2. The beauty of the liturgy. 3. Communion between West and East in obedience to Jesus in John 17.

Yet here I see much whining over "sheep stealing". How does one steel sheep, at least consistently, if believers are convinced of the purity and obedience of the said Church? Why not spend your efforts on finding ways to better train your members? Why not spend your efforts in helping your people see what they have to share with others?

If your intent is to grasp and hold onto your members without these factors they will flow through your fingers like water. I can hardly wait to become Byzantine Catholic. Don't you understand what you have. Please, don't waste your efforts on whining about the Latin Rite, or the boomers (I'm a boomer). Get on with the joyful task of sharing the faith and showing how every believer can share theirs.

Dan Lauffer

Dan,

Thank you for your joyful post. You will find that the vast majority of Greek Catholics are content and spirit filled in their parish life. Maybe the problem is that those that are not turn to the internet.

One finds joy is a Christian patrimony (Eastern or Western) from experiencing it as a lived tradition. Some people who change jurisidictions within the Catholic Church become very hung up on fine points of jurisdictional perogatives, often, if allowed to ramble on long enough, contradicting themselves.

Welcome to the Catholic Church and (as a graduate of a United Methodist University) I hope you bring to Byzantine Catholicism a Wesleyan zeal.

Kurt

Dan,

�I'm actively seeking conversion and eventually the priesthood, if God is willing, in the Byzantine Rite Catholic Church. I'm a bit dismayed at the whining here.�

Elias: Sorry. I was only challenging Rob about his Immaculate Protection Church. Yes, I have a bit of cynicism about me but it comes with experience.

�My attraction to the Byzantine Church from 27 years as a United Methodist Pastor is 1. The basic consistency of doctrine and truth. 2. The beauty of the liturgy. 3. Communion between West and East in obedience to Jesus in John 17.�

Elias: Item No.3 keeps me in the Byzantine Catholic Church too since there hasn�t been any better church arrangements offered since the Unia. To enjoy East and West as a Christian is wonderful. Being Eastern Catholic keeps both sides honest. Yet item no.1 is interesting. I don�t think any of our bishops have been consistent in their teaching. Latinization is not just a lay problem but something taught by our clergy and bishops. They were the ones printing the pew books with instructions to kneel at Low Mass, not the laity. Now they want to return to proper patrimony. Fine. It�s about time. Where in he�have they been? Since their decision to waffle the other way, many have left. Too much confusion in the ranks. No loyalty when there is no leadership. It makes me horribly sick when some cocky priests say �Hey, you folks, you are responsible for the church to happen, not me.� OK, but can the laity do anything without being taught first? We have two to three generations of self-taught cantors because teaching this �responsibility� only took them 100 years to do. What DO our catechist really know? I have seen many teenagers graduate from our catehism school, ECF, not knowing a damn thing. They are easy prey for ungodly forces. Why does this happen? One look at our esteemed 70-ish pop-psycology religious instruction material would make even ME go Orthodox. We serve our children garbage.

�Yet here I see much whining over "sheep stealing". How does one steel sheep, at least consistently, if believers are convinced of the purity and obedience of the said Church?�

Elias: Much evangelization in some Orthodox churches has been with other Christians, especially Eastern Catholic and the lack of recognition of their right to exist past and present. History is easy to rewrite � one just has to leave out some pertinent facts. But my complaint is the lack of honesty in some churches. Both Eastern Catholic AND Orthodox suffered tremendously in Communist countries. The Russian Orthodox Church is moving to suppress the Catholic Churches as if the Communist suppression was not enough. Will it be fair if the Catholic countries in the Europe told the Russian emigres to leave? The Poles did it to the Greek Catholics.

�Why not spend your efforts on finding ways to better train your members? Why not spend your efforts in helping your people see what they have to share with others?�

Elias: Impossible when they consider you either a heretic or a non-Christian. Sharing is not a part of the lexicon of some. Most conversations with Orthodox end with �We�ll be waiting for you when you come to Holy Orthodoxy.� It makes me sick. Patriarch Alexis, the communist collaborator, took hold of the Greek Catholic Churches in Eastern Europe and stated that the reason was because they wanted freedom from the tyranny of the Pope. Yet how many have questioned why they never tried to get �freedom� after 350+ years? I am aware that the sins of man do not blemish the Holiness or sanctity of the Unblemished Bride. Yet this idea has to be across the board. Orthodox Rob states that only the Orthodox Church is immune from Satan and only the Roman Church is in heresy for her sins. The Pope asked forgiveness on behalf of the Western Church. This is more than what has come from the other camp. Instead, Orthodox patriarchs suggest Final Solutions to the Uniate Problem.

�If your intent is to grasp and hold onto your members without these factors they will flow through your fingers like water.�

Elias: Much of the whining disgust is due to a lack of leadership in the Byzantine Catholic Church. Many churches are �priestless� and going down in numbers. The children don�t give a rat�s a�about learning Ukrainian language. Who gives a shi-? Obviously, the Powers that be haven�t checked the fences to see how many sheep are leaving. Do they care? The pressures of Christian Cannibalism (Christians evangelizing Christians) make it worse. The one word to summarize the mess is COMPLACENCY. We have been in this country for over 100+ years and we still don�t have the resources available to do what is needed. Our societies are more interested in golf outings and bowling statistics than evangelization. Just ask any parish priest to review their annual report. Look to see how much is spent on evangelization. I apologize for my own cynicism. I have been put in the crosshairs of discernment many times wondering which direction to go. Your desire to become Byzantine Catholic shows how the beauties of our faith and way of life is often missed and unappreciated. Father Hans Kung is a favorite of some eparchies to quote in their newspapers. He was also the one that referred to bishops as mitred pinheads. Can that same evaluation be applied to crowns? We have no leaders. We have authorities, but not leaders.

�I can hardly wait to become Byzantine Catholic. Don't you understand what you have. Please, don't waste your efforts on whining about the Latin Rite, or the boomers (I'm a boomer). Get on with the joyful task of sharing the faith and showing how every believer can share theirs.�

Elias: Good. But a care-taker/ baby sitting church has a long way to go if they want to evangelize. Maybe your tradition can inspire us. God bless.


Elias

PS: Again, forgive me for venting. I have given many years of service to my church community. I don't want recognition - just support and resources to turn to. I am tired of a church with absentee landlords who run to Mommy Rome first every time they want to play bishop. I am ready to give it up. Please pray for me. This has been a bad year.



[This message has been edited by Elias (edited 04-04-2000).]

I've been Greek Orthodox and I've been Greek Catholic but for the last decade I've been essentially, an agnostic or at least a non-theist. After wading through this verbal blood-bath I am glad I am no longer a member of the body of Christ-you know-those people we will" know by the love they have for one another!" If someone like myself referred to you as Crusaders,would you be surprised? Where is the Christian Savior in all of this mutual hatred? Don't you realize how repulsive all this trivializing of the Gospel message is? Do you honestly believe your god is as obsessed with this game of trivial pursuit as you participants in this rant and rave session seem to be? Where is the Sermon on the Mount in all of this. If this is what Christianity does to people I say "thanks,but no thanks" to Jesus. Do you realize how unhealthy all this anger is for you? I will remember the words of my new "pope"-the Dalai Lama-and I will extend unto you my unfailing compassion and through my words I vow to be "a guide for those who have lost their way." In the Dharma of peace and enlightment-a boddhisattva. "We live happily indeed, not hating those who hate us! Among men who hate us we dwell free from hatred!...Victory breeds hatred, for the conquered is unhappy. He who has given up both victory and defeat, he, the contented, is happy... ."--Buddha--Christianity's fatal flaw is its lack of wisdom and its inability to provide an inner ethical check that is cognitive or mind-centered. Christianity's extreme dogmatism easily degenerates into totalitarianism which degenerates into slaughter in the "name of the True God and His Truth" - a god drenched with blood and not the Precious Blood of the Christ. What a terrible distortion of spirituality.

[This message has been edited by soulsearcher (edited 04-04-2000).]

Scotty, beam me up !!!

Joe Prokopchak
archsinner

Dear Elias and Soulsearcher,

For reasons that are beyond my comprehension both of your posts give me great courage and convince me that my journey to the Byzantine Catholic Church is the right one.

Elias, have you ever been a member of a main line protestant denomination? I doubt that anything could be more distressing to a Christian than the stupidity of most of the members and the heresies of many, if not most of the leadership. The calling of the Eastern Rite Churches is one of the highest and noblest in all of Christianity. Our Lord Himself prayed for unity. It was His final prayer in the full hearing of His disciples. Yet, you lack leadership to share this truth? That is sad and it is an opportunity that I believe God has set before you, and if God continues to lead, me as well.

My heart is broken for your struggle but, dear brother, protestantism has thrown over virtually all of Apostolic Christianity. That is still your legacy.

O, I have so much to learn and I wish I knew more than I did, but God still does honor faithfulness. Yes, many of your "leaders" have not been faithful. I certainly understand. Much of your material has been poorly chosen. You have to some extent compromised some of your liturgy. It troubles me that it is so difficult to find a pewless liturgy. That ought to be the standard. I long to lie prostrate before the Lord, not as part of some mid week oddity, but as a regular part of every liturgy. Last Sunday I got hold of a copy of the Liturgy. I used my own copy of the Liturgy before. I took note that the "filioque" text was in the old battered book but crossed out in pencil. Why don't we (may I use the first person plural?) have up to date copies printed with the Nicene Creed with the proper wording?

Elias, I don't know if you are clergy or laity. If I were clergy in a Byzantine Church today, I would want you in my parish if you are laity. If you are clergy I will pray that you act with boldness and no longer worry about what isn't happening. Thus you will be an example of those who are leading us out of darkness.

Soulsearcher,

I teach Comparative Religions. The calling of Bodhissatva is surely a high calling. You are called to take upon yourself the sufferings of all of humanity until all reach enlightenment. If I didn't love God so much I might consider being a Buddhist. Nevertheless, I respect your calling. I believe God will aid those who are faithful in their love for Christ. I am sorry that your experience with the Church has been so offensive. I can certainly agree. Yet I still believe that God is the source of enlightenment.

Dan Lauffer

Dear Elias,
Let me make one thing clear to you. The Orthodox Church is not immune any more than the heterodox churches from Satan. The Orthodox Church is the Church of the Seven Ecumenical Councils. I cannot say the same for Rome even though she was present then and part of the Pentarchy. You as a Uniate will continue to endure much more struggle to maintain the Byzantine Tradition as the Latins in general remain condescending regardless what Rome says in her encyclicals. You have a grudge against the Russian Orthodox Church for what occurred in the past. I can understand that. Can you understand my stance on uniatism? This happened to my people and families in the Middle East. The Latins helped to establish the Uniate Churches who were originally Orthodox. Rome's supremacy is but arrogancy which is proven history. I have many specific stories to tell about the formation of Uniate Churches in my village and the problems that entailed. My parents married in a Greek Catholic Church. They were both baptized Orthodox and then came the Latins and they became Latins. My father and many others used to tell me that they became Latin because of the material wealth they gave out. In Arabic he called it buggaj which means a baggage of materials. My father never became a religious person and he felt that the churches were out for themselves. In the other words, it's all business and money. You have to thank Rome for her contribution. If Rome really cared for the Orthodox she could have presented her help to the Patriarchy rather than going behind its back and luring the Orthodox into her fold. Those days were bad and poor times for simple peasants without a religious education. The Arabs who became Latin became condescending towards their own Orthodox people. This is still evident amongst Latinized Arabs to this day. I don't know what you find that is Orthodox in Catholicism when Rome does not contain the fullness of the Church. She was breathing with two lungs and is calling for a lung transplant. Once the "infallible" mindset of the Papacy has been altered for the good then perhaps unity with Orthodoxy can become a reality. If Rome wants to continue with itself as being infallible and supreme and the Head of the Church there will not be any acceptance of her into Orthodoxy.

Elias wrote:

"Many children have left the Ukrainian Catholic Church because their clergy still insist in worsipping in a foreign tongue. This habit goes against the tradition of Jesus, St. Paul, Cyril & Methodius, et al in speaking the language of the people. To hell with the children; so our parishes become geriatric community centers with a nice Mass."


It seems that when Churches begin to see themselves primarly as bearers of a national tradition to the exclusion of their need to be apostolic, parish life is emptied of its vitality. Hence, solely septuagenarian Sundays! I have visited some Ukranian parishes, and was most unimpressed by their exclusion of English - even in their religious education classes! (One sees the same absurdity among RC parishes that still retain (for some reason) the full use of Latin in their liturgies.) Unless one is ministering to what is primarily a first generation immigrant community, people who want to revisit the Old Country should buy tickets through Northwest Airlines. The rest of us want to go to heaven!

Peace and all good things,

Gordo, sfo

Dan wrote:

"Yet here I see much whining over "sheep stealing". How does one steel sheep, at least consistently, if believers are convinced of the purity and obedience of the said Church? Why not spend your efforts on finding ways to better train your members? Why not spend your efforts in helping your people see what they have to share with others? If your intent is to grasp and hold onto your members without these factors they will flow through your fingers like water. I can hardly wait to become Byzantine Catholic. Don't you understand what you have. "

Well said. Our goal should always be to teach and live the Gospel of peace in peace with God and with each other. In that way, we can truly begin to "overwhelm evil with an abundance of good!" If anything, the lack of focus on the Gospel and the continued focus on the temporal, political struggles between the churches overshadows the glory of God that we should be reflecting in our words and deeds. Acting like we have only scandalizes the world and makes Christianity a mockery. Our power is in the humility of the cross of our Savior, the "silent" Lamb of God...demonstrating that the war against hell will be won only by love, not by contentious words. (I believe that in some of the Church Fathers they mention the need to avoid constroversy and argumentation about Divine Truths.)

"Please, don't waste your efforts on whining about the Latin Rite, or the boomers (I'm a boomer). Get on with the joyful task of sharing the faith and showing how every believer can share theirs."

I feel that I am well chastised here! Thank you for the reminder about what is truly important!

Peace and all good things,

Gordo, sfo

Gordo,

Please know that nothing I said was meant as a personal reprimand. I haven't had the pleasure of meeting any of you.

With that said, I appreciate your reaction. You have a level of wisdom that can be helpful to a seeker like myself.

On the subject of this thread. I think Jesus would hope that we would all apologize to each other and "lay our crowns at the foot of His throne". I am just a lowly seeker here. I have no authority to speak to any of you except as a brother in Christ. Yet, if Menachem Began and Anwar Sadat can sit down together cannot all who call Christ our Savior sit down at the Lord's table together for the sake of Christ and for the care for a fallen world?

Dan Lauffer

Dozier,

�It seems that when Churches begin to see themselves primarly as bearers of a national tradition to the exclusion of their need to be apostolic, parish life is emptied of its vitality.�

Elias: Exactly! It wouldn�t surprise me if the Ukrainian Catholics replace the term �Catholic� with �Ukrainian� in the Creed.


�Unless one is ministering to what is primarily a first generation immigrant community, people who want to revisit the Old Country should buy tickets through Northwest Airlines. The rest of us want to go to heaven!�

Elias: They might get a tax benefit if they petition the government to be granted Amish-like status. I recently attended a Ukrainian Catholic liturgy and the priest gave all sorts of reasons why there are no young folks in church. I agree that there are many �forces� out there pulling them away, but the glue is very week �in� church which allows those outside forces to do their job easier. First, when the Gospel message is in a foreign tongue, who can listen to such stuff? The old folk want to be like Old Country, but the younger generation are planning to get jobs in an English-speaking country! It is interesting that the revived L�viv Theological Academy mandates English for all its students. Maybe the younger generation can appreciate their church in L�viv since they at least teach English. The clergy can go on all they want bickering and excusing themselves for the lost sheep, but they were the ones that allowed it to happen. They failed to follow Christian Tradition of speaking the language of the people like Jesus did. I know the immigrants� first language is Ukrainian � but the fourth generation? Come on! Even the Russian Orthodox spoke the language of those in Alaska.

But the Ukrainian Church is going to vastly improve whent they change their official name from Ukrainian to Kyievin. Name changes always fixes all the problem. Got a problem? Change your name. There is nothing wrong with your TV set.

The clergy must also ask forgiveness. Yet it is the people's fault. This is always the case we are reminded.


Elias



[This message has been edited by Elias (edited 04-05-2000).]

Elias -

If you think about it, by accomodating the liturgical language to that of the people, aren't the churches fulfilling an "incarnational" principle by imitating the eternal Word of God who became one of us so that we might receive Him and enter into communion with God?

Philippians 2:5-11

"Let this mind be in you which is also in Christ Jesus,
who, being in the form of God,
did not deem equality with God
something to be grasped at,
but made himself of no reputation,
taking the form of a servant,
and coming in the likeness of men..."

The Incarnation is the Great Accomodation!

Peace,

Gordo, sfo

[This message has been edited by Dozier (edited 04-05-2000).]

Thank you for giving us the churchy version of "they're in America, they should speak American".

Intolerance towards people who speak a different language has always been one of the hallmarks of reactionaries in this country.

[This message has been edited by Kurt (edited 04-06-2000).]

Kurt,

So why are the Ukrainians so intolerant of the English language. The L'viv Academy in the Ukraine mandates that all students take English. The Ukrainians in America are intolerant of their non-Ukrainian / English speaking children. No room for the Incarnational Church. Damn those bratty kids! Why can't they be as stubborn as us? You'd think after cramming years of Old Country ways and Old Country language down their blasted throats, they would 'appreciate' it.

The message is the Gospel, not a language. At one Ukrainian liturgy, I heard a grandmother scold a little boy about this. Of course, his parents were nowhere to be found. Gee, I wonder if that little boy grew up appreciating his Ukrainian Nationalistic church? He's probably at the same Roman Catholic parish down the street as his parents.

Elias


[This message has been edited by Elias (edited 04-05-2000).]

Kurt said:

"Intolerance towards people who speak a different language has always been one of the reactionaries in this country."

Let me be clear: I am not opposed to preserving the ethnic traditions of a given community, including, to a certain extent, their language. The last thing we should do is to subject all local/family/parish heritages to the bland "cultural" expectations of Beverly Hills 90210!

Issues arise when the desire to preserve what is ultimately transitory, and, if you accept the story of the Tower of Babel as true - which I do - a source of division due to sin, is at the expense of the pastoral needs especially of the young. If that happens, then national or ethnic preservation has become an idol. If there are still a substantial number of first generation immigrants in a parish community, then by all means, meet their need to worship in their mother tongue! Perhaps even compromise a bit by having two languages in the liturgy at different times. (The Maronites do that - Arabic and English.) That way everyone can participate to some extent and not at the total expense of another group in the parish.

Please, though, don't confuse pastoral sense with "intolerance". The Holy Spirit at Pentecost had it right, after all!

Peace and all good things,

Gordo, sfo

[This message has been edited by Dozier (edited 04-05-2000).]

Kurt,

Djflkadf jkfl wpoek pw epppp ddf;;; powmvcpo m0omevrk pmpmmv vmld a;lekr;el ppppp!

Porjvnfh vcneuyc snekf eragg poljjyuj ghrd sef wleiefj osne ppeh reteee ingqqs loik dkin en fopto sinl?

Elias

Elias,

I hope I am not taking any time away from you assistance to the America First campaign to close down all of those Roman Catholic parishes that have Mass in Spanish, but...


1. I am not one to tell strangers how to raise their children. If a family want to make an effort for them to be bilingual, I hardly think it is the Catholic Church's job to intervene. However, if to talk to my sister today, you might catch her at a moment when she is happy to let you raise her children for her.

2. If the members of a parish speak a language other than English, I would think it is within that congregation's judgement if they want Liturgy in that language.

3. Calling Americans who are bilingual intolerant because they don't use English exclusively seems to run contrary to the NCCB's teachings on racial and ethnic respect.

Kurt,

�I hope I am not taking any time away from you assistance to the America First campaign to close down all of those Roman Catholic parishes that have Mass in Spanish, but... �

Elias: First, you did NOT answer my previous post. I am still waiting for your comments. No comprehende?

�1. I am not one to tell strangers how to raise their children. If a family want to make an effort for them to be bilingual, I hardly think it is the Catholic Church's job to intervene. However, if to talk to my sister today, you might catch her at a moment when she is happy to let you raise her children for her.�

Elias: Bilingual is not the issue, Kurt. We should all learn another language. The issue of language IS the job of the Church. The Cyrillic and Armenian alphabets were inventions of the Church so they can evangelize. What do YOU call it when a church refuses to speak the language of the next generation - period? I know children who grew up feeling like cultural freaks because they went out into the world that didn�t speak their language used at home, whereby real �foreigners,� not 3rd or 4th generation Ukrainians, were eager to learn their language to succeed in life.

�2. If the members of a parish speak a language other than English, I would think it is within that congregation's judgement if they want Liturgy in that language.�

Elias: I am not against the use of other languages. You missed my point. It is the children of Ukrainians who do not want to deal with it anymore. Why do some people, including yourself, have a very difficult time listening to children? Maybe they would like to pray in English? The children in my parish sing at the top of their voices because they know the language. Yet it is the children who are getting fed up with the old folks rejecting the surrounding culture, the only culture the children know and experience. I am not suggesting a melting-pot. That false theory didn�t work. Yet look at the Asians who come to our country to use our colleges. They already know English fluently BEFORE they arrive. Even India voted to have English as their official business language. Again, even the revived L�viv Theological Academy mandates English to all of its students. Then again, these American-born Ukrainian children are so damn bratty and noncompliant in speaking Old Country language. I am sure the older generation is happy just so they can go to church without their teenage children or grandchildren. Who is serving who here? The parents and grandparents need to apologize too. Many parishes finally allowed an English liturgy after seeing most of the youth leave. Duh!

�3. Calling Americans who are bilingual intolerant because they don't use English exclusively seems to run contrary to the NCCB's teachings on racial and ethnic respect.�

Elias: The Ukrainian immigrants might be bilingual, but their children might not want to be. I grew up with the Old Slavonic liturgy not knowing a damn thing being said. I even contemplated going Roman since they switched to English. I know what the children are going through. As they say in the social service industries and government programs, �It�s for the children.� Is the NCCB the governing authority of the Ukrainian Church? Did you ever wonder why the Septuagint was in Greek even though the official language of the Palestinian Jews was Hebrew? Greek was the language of commerce just as much as English is today. Do your children a favor: teach them English; they might be more competitive in the work force. I have many Asian friends who would love to compete for their jobs.


Someone will have to stand before the Judgement Seat of Christ and answer why the language medium was more important than the Gospel message. Maybe you?

Elias

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I love to attend liturgy in any language, whether I understand it or not. I've fond memories of many masses in Mexico (oops, didn't intend all that alliteration), even tho' my Espanol is not quite fluent. Have attended plenty of Spanish masses here in the U.S. of A., too.

The only Ukrainian Catholic liturgy I've been to was in British Columbia, and I was UNCONSOLABLY disappointed when their English liturgy commenced: it was spoken, rather than chanted. The beautiful Ukrainian chant was reserved for the Ukrainian language....

I did get to one of their Ukrainian liturgies, but as I don't read the Cyrillic alphabet, the pewbook was hard to follow. At least the Ruthenians in this country print out the OCS phonetically!

CAPTL
sinner

[This message has been edited by CAPTL (edited 04-06-2000).]

Kurt -

�I hope I am not taking any time away from you assistance to the America First campaign to close down all of those Roman Catholic parishes that have Mass in Spanish, but... �

You bring up an interesting point, however, I would only point out the important differences between the Ukranians and the Spanish speaking peoples/parishes in the US:

1. Spanish is virtually the second-language of the US - Ukranian may come in a close 23rd.

2. There is an extremely large community of first and second-generation Spanish-speaking immigrants in the states. (see my earlier point on immigrant communities)I'm not sure that one can say the same with the Ukranians.

3. Spanish-speaking parishes are established in order to minister to the needs of spanish-speaking people, and to prevent them from feeling "cut-off" from the Church - thus falling prey to evangelicalism or indifference. It appears that by retaining Ukranian as the primary liturgical language in the states, the Ukranian Church is actually cutting off the young and causing them to go elsewhere...or nowhere!

I would also add that there is a plethora of Latin Churches and comparatively few Byzantine Churches in the States. This means that as far as spreading the good news of Byzantine Catholic orthodoxy, Eastern parishes should optimize the opportunity of their presence, no matter how small - like a little leaven in a big loaf! If one seeks to participate more fully in the new evangelization, doesn't it make sense that the Byzantine churches need to "open wide the doors" to locals who may not of the same ethnic heritage in order to bring them to the saving knowledge of Christ? Or is evangelization in the West solely the role of the Latins and their english liturgy?

As far as the IRONIC accusation of nationalism that you appear to be making ("America First!"), I can only say that were I in France or Uganda, I would call for the same principle to be applied: celebrate the liturgy in the native tongue! This isn't some "English is superior!" trip!!!

Pax,

Gordo, sfo


[This message has been edited by Dozier (edited 04-06-2000).]

The continued discussion over the beauty and effectiveness of various languages used in the Liturgy or Mass is most interesting. However, I wish to return to the purpose of this thread. Will or When will the Eastern Church reciprocate the Pope's apology?

I suspect the question can only be answered through proper discernment of the unity of the various Orthodox Churches. That is to say, "Is it possible for the East to agree amongst itself enough to fashion an apology?" One might say the Magisterium has the East trumped on this one.

I'm just wondering, "How many ecumenical council have the Eastern Churches held since 1054?"

Dan Lauffer

I'm just wondering, "How many ecumenical council have the Eastern Churches held since 1054?"

The same number as the West.

Elias

Elias,

I laughed out loud when I read your answer. You are, of course, correct. My question should have been "How many have been seriously attempted?"

I doubt very seriously that one could get all of the Eastern Churches together, from what I've observed, even for a chicken dinner.

Dan Lauffer

Dan,

Free pierogies might do the trick. The Italians can have ravioli. Then we can sit back and enjoy the food fights. After watching grown bishops wearing tomato sauce and prunes running down their robes, some serious discussions can get started. If things get too hot in the discussions, then more food fights. Every evening they can drink pivo and salute goodbye to the Second Millenium Church.

Their motto can be: "Drink a gallon, eat a ton, 'cause we're the Ecumenical Council of 2001!"


Elias


[This message has been edited by Elias (edited 04-07-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Elias (edited 04-07-2000).]

Elias,

Good post. Now, when are you setting up this food f...er...ecumenical council? I'd like to be invited. :-)

A little humor in tense situations is most welcome.

Dan Lauffer

Dan,

You bring the libations. Nothing under 80 proof. We will have an E. Council whether the bishops show up or not. We'll even invite Rob S. to kick off the first session.

Elias

Dear Elias,
I'll be there just let me know the time and day. Do you like arak or oouzzoo?

Rob

Dear Dan,
There have been no Ecumenical Councils since
787AD. We are waiting for Rome to wake up to come to join the Orthodox fold once again. The Eastern Churches have had synods or councils since the Schism but not Ecumenical Councils. The Orthodox Church has the full authority and capability to have an Ecumencial Council with or without Rome. However, it is the desire of the Church to save Rome and bring her back home. The Orthodox have had taken offense to Rome's so-called Ecumenical Councils(the 8th to 21st) and are not binding on Orthodox or Byzantine Catholic. Unfortunatley, the Byzantine Catholics tend to keep their mouths shut in fear of embarrassing Roman Catholics or their Church. Even though there are some honest people like Elias who will admit to some things I say but they have to keep Rome in mind for fear of offending Roman Catholic sensibilities.

Rob,

Bring anything to the E.C. that works!

French Brandy is fine too. Pardon my Western taste. We can have one big Forgiveness Party. What exactly do bishops drink?

Roman sensibilities? You must be speaking about our bishops again. I see no problem with Orthodox in communion with Rome. AND! I see no problem with Rome in communion with Orthodoxy. It takes two to make it happen.


Elias

Dear Elias,
If you don't mind I will bring Orthodoxy to the Eighth E.C. My bishops aren't that picky about what to drink. The last time I had a drink with one of my bishops he had a glass of white wine. What does your bishop drink? In regards to communion, it must be true communion or else it will not work. And I am not talking about the Eucharist. I suspect you know what I mean.

Rob S,

Communion.

The Roman West recognizes the validity of the Eastern Orthodox Eucharist and other sacred mysteries. I know the term "validity" is a Western term, but I think you know what they mean. Most Orthodox bishops also recognize the 'validity' of the Western Sacraments. The issue boils down to ecclesial/judicial domain of the Pope of Rome. I don't like the current setup, but I will not say that the Second Millenium style of Papacy makes eucharist invalid.

Was there ever a time when East and West was in Schism because of the eucharist? I know many would like to make issue of the leavened/unleavened bread polemics but until the scripture scholars solve what supper Jesus actually celebrated as his last, we will never know if it was the Passover or some other meal. Who is to say that those espousing polemical sides with leavened or unleavened bread will solve the problem if the Gospel writers cannot even agree on.

Anyways, I believe Eucharistic Communion already exists albeit within a failed Ecclesial Communion. What is hopeful is that even though East and West (even the late Fr. Schmemann has a problem with this superficial distinction) is not currently in communion with each other, the Holy Spirit still makes communion for us with God. In some sense we ARE united and in communion but not on our terms. This is sad.

If the Holy Spirit is not working here, then we must also apologize for the failure of the Holy Spirit in our darling schisms.


Elias

Byzantino,

You wrote: "I applaud the Romanian Orthodox Church for being the first Orthodox Church to ask forgiveness for the way it treated the Romanian Catholics."

Where can I get a transcript of this? Can you fill me in more about the Romanian Orthodox-Catholic relations and how they are getting along. Thanks.

Elias

Regarding leavened or unleavened bread, can you imagine a greater "non-issue" which divides Christians?

I mean really, only the devil could think of making the Eucharist an obstacle to communion!

To return to Dan's original point -

"Will or When will the Eastern Church reciprocate the Pope's apology?"

One question I would have is...what would such an apology look like?

Also, who would deliver it? Moscow? Constantinople? Who speaks for Orthodoxy?!?

Gordo, sfo

Gordo,

I simply reiterated the original question. The problem is that like protestantism no one speaks for Orthodoxy. However, is there a possibility that one or two Orthodox leaders could be persuaded to meet with the bishop of Rome and jointly request an ecumenical council?...without food fights. ;-)

Dan Lauffer

Dan wrote:

"However, is there a possibility that one or two Orthodox leaders could be persuaded to meet with the bishop of Rome and jointly request an ecumenical council?...without food fights. ;-)"

My understanding is that that is what originally happened when the Council of Ferra-Florenece was called. The food fight occurred when the people, incited by Mark of Ephesus and others - especially the monks - profoundly rejected the Council's joint declarations.

With that said, I should add that the definitions of the Council were not respectful of the Eastern perspective on various doctrinal points - defining things in and on largely Western terms. (Partially, perhaps, due to the political advantage that the West found itself in, with the East requesting military and practical support against the Muslim invaders.) In that sense, its "ecumenicity", not as a canonical council, but in terms of it's practical effect, was a failure. (I would argue the same for many of the "Western" ecumenical councils without in any way shape or form denying their infallibility or authority. One has to bear in mind, of course, that infallibility does not guarantee that the right thing is said at the right time in the right way --- only that, at a bare MINIMUM, it is without doctrinal error. In other words, they may not have gotten it wrong, but they didn't get it all right either!)

The main reason, aside from the lack of sensitivity to the Eastern perspective - a fact acknowledeged by Pope Paul VI - for the ground-swell of popular rejection was the treatment that many of the Easterns had suffered at the hands (and swords) of Western crusaders. Hence sin beget sin. The popular outcry essentially said "Better to serve under the oppression of the musilms, than to serve the tiara of the Pope!" - or somthing more catchy than that! (Who knows, I'm not into marketing ground swells...)

Some say that the "great schism" occurred in 1054. I say it was at the Council of Ferra-Florence...and it was more like a "great divorce" between estranged spouses. And the West was as much to blame for the "divorce" as was the East.

Two cents -

Peace,

Gordo, sfo

Dear Elias,
The Orthodox Church does not comprehend nor accept sacraments outside of herself. She does know that the Roman Catholic Church continues to view her sacraments as valid. I believe there is a difference of perception as well as orientation in the meaning and understanding of the sacraments between the two churches. As an Orthodox who is not in communion with Rome, I can tell you two views of how your sacraments are viewed: not valid or don't know if there is grace in them. You must know by now that when a Roman Catholic or a heterodox converts to Orthodoxy he or she is chrismated rather than baptised. Do you understand what this might possible say about the views of our sacraments or yours sacraments? This is not church politics. This is reality. Catholicism may hold to parts and pieces of Orthodoxy but the issue of grace in her sacraments is a question left unanswerable. One may be of the opinion that there is no grace in them or one may honestly say that they do not know. Therefore, Orthodoxy does not recognize the validity of the Western Sacraments in terms of the function of grace. We may say that the two churches share in the seven sacraments which is more of a structured way of agreeing on a common past adherence.
As you probably know in one of my posts I did argue about the validity of the use of leavened bread in contrast to unleavended. The Eastern Churches stance makes more sense than that of the Roman Catholic Church. The reason you stated that "the Gospel writers cannot even agree on" the use of leavened or unleavened bread is because you are in communion with the Roman Catholic Church that uses unleavened. The Roman Catholic Church did utilize the leavened bread before the eighth century. Why would Rome want to change to unleavened? This is an interesting question! The Orthodox Church is quite definite on her position. As for some Byzantine Catholics they tend to waffel on this issue and claim ignorance as not to offend Roman Catholics. I really don't see the offense in telling the truth as it is. This is just one issue out of hundred other ones. In regards to your "if" statment about the Holy Spirit's failure, this sounds blasphemous. The Holy Spirit, the Comforter and the Spirit of Truth is not the author of confussion and divisions. I believe the Orthodox Church is the indivisible and infallible Church of Christ. I don't know how you view your own church but I do know she has been responsible for leaving Orthodoxy on her own free will. I do know from reading Western-oriented history books that the West has always made and maintained the claim that the Orthodox Church left the Catholic Church. I just recently heard this said to my face and I do know this is a common amongst the ignorant. Well Elias, I don't know or I should honestly say I don't think we are going to have that Eighth Ecumencial Council any time soon. I think we would be better holding off with the bread and the alcohol. They say that alcohol is better off aged but I think we should freeze the bread. What do you think?

Dear Dozier,
Those who claim the "great schism" occurred in 1054 AD know nothing of Church hisory. The problems began way before 1054 AD that the reached a high point in 1054 AD and even higher in 1204 AD. One can trace the problems if they quit using a Western mindset
and take seriously the historical facts and agreements between the churches before 1054AD. I will add three cents to your two cents to think about.

Rob S,

�� Orthodoxy does not recognize the validity of the Western Sacraments in terms of the function of grace.�

Elias: But they recognize the current Pope of Rome and other RC bishops as bishops and not men dressed up like bishops. Even the late Patriarch Athenagoras was going to concelebrate with Pope Paul VI. What does that say about the mutual validity of each other�s sacraments? Was the Patriarch a heretic for thinking such a thing?


�As you probably know in one of my posts I did argue about the validity of the use of leavened bread in contrast to unleavended. The Eastern Churches stance makes more sense than that of the Roman Catholic Church. The reason you stated that "the Gospel writers cannot even agree on" the use of leavened or unleavened bread is because you are in communion with the Roman Catholic Church that uses unleavened.�

Elias: Determining which type of meal our Lord celebrated as the Last Supper is difficult. So many Easterners theologize the reason for unleavened bread because it is Living Bread. This is fine but doesn�t answer the question what meal took place the night our Lord was betrayed. This is not an argument for the use of leavened bread, but a comment on our inability to nail down something so eventful as the Last Supper. We don�t know and the RC Church considers the Last Supper as a Passover Meal. They have to reconcile their Synoptic and Pauline interpretations of that event with the Gospel of John. Easterners have to reconcile their leavened bread theologies with the Synoptics. What makes it more confusing is that the Pharisees and the Sadducees determined the Passover on separate days. My being in communion with Rome has nothing to do with my earlier statement. The West ignores John as much as the East ignores the Synoptics.


�As for some Byzantine Catholics they tend to waffel on this issue and claim ignorance as not to offend Roman Catholics. I really don't see the offense in telling the truth as it is. This is just one issue out of hundred other ones.�

Elias: Waffle? Just pointing out something fundamentalist-like Orthodox wish not to address. Answer me this: What type of meal DID Jesus have at the Last Supper. What is your authoritative source(s)? How do you reconcile the often conflicting statements among the Gospel writers? Using all of the New Testament scriptures (canonical, of course), on what day did Jesus die?


�In regards to your "if" statement about the Holy Spirit's failure, this sounds blasphemous. The Holy Spirit, the Comforter and the Spirit of Truth is not the author of confusion and divisions.�

Elias: If the Ukrainian Orthodox Church has many overlapping jurisdictions (remember: I lost count after one), then who is the author of that disunity?


�I believe the Orthodox Church is the indivisible and infallible Church of Christ. I don't know how you view your own church but I do know she has been responsible for leaving Orthodoxy on her own free will.�

Elias: Sometimes we forget one tiny fact: it was ORTHODOX who left the Orthodox Church and not Byzantine Catholic �Uniates.�


�They say that alcohol is better off aged but I think we should freeze the bread. What do you think?�

Elias: The Ukrainian Orthodox and Russian Orthodox should unite within their own churches before suggesting how the entire church should be united.

Elias

Robert,

You wrote...

"One can trace the problems if they quit using a Western mindset and take seriously the historical facts and agreements between the churches before 1054AD."

What were some of those issues as you see them - or as the Orthodox see them? If it's possible to state these issues "with malice towards none" - say, just as a police officer would do in a police report - "Just the facts, Maam!", I'd be interested in getting even more cents from you than just three! (Mind you, there was no pun intended in that!)

Peace, Orthobro!

Gordo, sfo

Dear Elias,
The Orthodox Church recognizes the Pope of Rome no different than recognizing the State of Israel. However, the question remains open as to their validity. The late Patriarch Athenagoras would have been excomunicated if would of tried to concelebrate with the late Pope. The reality is that there was no concelebration and the mere speculations do not change the reality. You should know our history of excommunications of Popes and Patriarchs that fell out of line.
Again in regards to the use of leavened or unleavened bread I put my trust in the Orthodox Church to lead and guide me in that truth. The Orthodox Church is the authoritative source on this issue. The reason you propose a conflict to this issue is because your confused between East and West.
Your statement,"Sometimes we forget one tiny fact: it was ORTHODOX who left the Orthodox Church and not the Byzantine Catholic Uniates," does not make any sense and contradicts historical facts. I think you meant to say that it was the Uniates who left the Orthodox Church. Thank me later for this correction. Please note why you people are still refered to as Uniates. Also please pray for us for the establishment of an American Patriarchy and the elimination of jurisdictionism.

Dear Dozier,
MOre than 30 years ago there was hardly any Orthodox perspectives in the literature books of the West. Western writers mainly wrote what they thought of Orthodoxy and the Orthodox Church rather than allowing them to speak for themselves. I have a Catholic history book dated in 1954 that is quite biased and misinformed. Could you imagine from 1954 until today how much misinformation and prejudicey have filled ROman Catholic mindsets on what they think they believe about the "Greek" Church? This is just a sample amongst the millions of past-dated books that were in circulation. There was a book when I was in college that caught my attention and changed the way I viewed the world. THe book,"Orientalism," written by Professor Edward Said exposes the harm on how the West viewed the East and elsewhere. What this boils down is that the West especially the Roman Church has much to confess on how it treated non-ROman Catholics in her past whether in words or deeds. Yes I do have a problem with the way Roman Catholic Church thinks which is the problem found in her mindset and orientation. I will help as much as I can to revive her again to her original senses.

Rob S,

The term 'uniate' is meant to be derogatory by the Orthodox - who are always just as willing to demonstrate their Christian charity. You will know they are Orthodox if they call you nasty names. And if they don't call you names, they will excommunicate you. Damn that Athenagras, he only wanted to follow Christ's wishes for unity.

Why are you alone in this? Where are your Orthodox brothers and sisters defending you?

As usual, you still didn't answer my question regarding the Last Supper. What meal did Jesus have? The meal would determine the type of bread used. The Synoptics (Mt, Mk, and Lk, incl. Pauline Epistles) do not agree with John. Who is correct, Rob? Are the scriptures in error? Contradictory? A joke?

Do any Eastern Churches still celebrate with Water and Bread, and not wine? Just wondering.


Elias

I must defend Robert on some things here. Previously others have taken offense at the term "Uniate." Some are more sensitive to some terms for Byzantine Catholics than others. Uniate has tended to be more offensive than others to Byzantine Catholics.

As far as Athanogoras, the theoretical concelebration was just speculation. To do such a thing unilaterally without at least consulting the other Orthodox sees would be foolish. I have no doubt he would have been removed from most diptyches, although excommunication would be another speculation. Some would have excommunicated him immediately (and canonically they probably could), but a council probably would have been called to address the issue. Unity with Rome at the cost of breaking Orthodox unity? To choose Rome over other Orthodox patriarchates would be a act of poor conciliar judgement.

While I don't believe every little thing needs to be addressed before unity, things such as the Creed and the basic (not every function) role of the Roman Patriarch with Orthodox sees needs to be addressed. There is peace and there is a good peace. We need to make a good peace. I don't think all that Rome has done since 1054 is anathema to Orthodoxy, so I think we can come together instead of one standing still bidding the other to come towards it.

One can make symbolic arguments for both leavened and unleavened bread. Accuracy with Scripture vs post-Resurrection theology. One can prefer one without insisting the other is "wrong." It's issue 100 of the 101 that divide us.

Dear Elias,
Permit me to give you some views as to why the leavened bread is prefered over the unleavened. First, the Orthodox Church has the mind of Christ as shown in 1 Cor. 2:16. I really think you are opposed to the enlightment of the Holy Spirit by claiming the unleavened bread is valid. The early Church did utilize leavened bread which is symbolic and possesses the richness of the new life in Christ. In unleavened bread there is no life nor growth nor is it fulfilling. If you intend to keep the Jewish MOsiac ways of unleavened bread then I suggest you should keep the Jewish Circumsion of male infants instead of the Circumsion of Christ which is Baptism. The unleavened bread used by the Israelites is interpreted as due to hasty preparations for flight. Now that Christ has come there is no sense and purpose to use unleavened bread. Didn't Christ say in Mat 13:33 that "the Kingdom of God is like leaven?" What if Christ had said that the Kingdom of God is likened to unleavened? Would that make any sense to you anymore than Christ would not have said such a thing?
Nicetas Stethatos put forth the following accusation in his debate with Cardinal Humbert: "Those who still partake of the azymes are under the shadow of the Law and eat of the table of the Jews, not of the reasonable and living table of God nor of the bread which is both supersubstantial and consubstantial to us men who have believed. For we have been taught to ask for substantial bread from on high. For what is supersubstantial if not that which is consubstantial to us? But the bread which is consubstantial to us is nothing other than the Body of Christ, who was born consubstantial to us according to his humanity. But if our lump's nature (which the Word assumed) is living (or possesses a soul), you by partaking of the azymes, do not eat bread which is supersubstantial and consubstantial with us. For indeed the azymes plainly are lifeless (or without soul), as the very nature of things even more plainly teaches." His argument was based on the Church Fathers' teachings on salvation as deification, "God became man so that man might become divine." Why is it that we call Christ or the Eucharist the Bread of Life? There is no life in unleavened bread nor has it ever been likened to the Kingdom of God. Don't blame me or the Orthodox Church for the deviations of Rome or the monophysites's use of azymes. The problem you may think is of minor details but there are hundreds of these minor details in other theologiccal issues. It all boils down to the mindsets that are alien to Orthodoxy (the mind of Christ). In other words, Rome and the like need to return to the rightfully practice and unity only found in Orthodoxy. That's all.

Robert,

You have certainly given me reason not to consider Orthodoxy at this time with this statement:
"First, the Orthodox Church has the mind of Christ as shown in 1 Cor. 2:16. I really think you are opposed to the enlightment of the Holy Spirit by claiming the unleavened bread is valid."

I have fought too many battles with United Methodist Bishops who claim to have the authority of the Holy Spirit to fall for this trap. Bishops in the United Methodist Church are certainly inauthentic. However, they have claimed Holy Spirit authority for denying the divinity of Christ, the Trinity, and the authority of Holy Scripture. They have also used this argument to support same sex marriages and the ordination of non celibate homosexuals.

To claim the mind of Christ for the Orthodox over the Catholics on this matter, or visa versa, does not convince me.

Dan Lauffer

"If you intend to keep the Jewish MOsiac ways of unleavened bread then I suggest you should keep the Jewish Circumsion of male infants instead of the Circumsion of Christ which is Baptism."

Rob,

Jewish ways? Circumcision of Christ?

Isn't the Liturgy of the Word derived from the Synagogue service? Where did Psalmody in the Church come from? Church hymns were restricted by the Council of Laodecea. The sign of the Mosaic Covenant was not retained but the Jewish influence from early Jewish Christians was. Look at how we worship - it is temple-style, not supper-style. What about the evening light for vespers? It came from the Jewish evening prayer. What about the Twelve Apostles? They represent the New Israel. Jesus even quotes the scriptures many times, so do the evangelists.

So my question still stands: What bread was used by Jesus at the Last Supper?

It is not a question of what the Roman Catholics are using today but of what the Jewish apostles and Jesus used. The Synoptics say it was a Passover Meal. If this is the case, then why would good Jews use leavened bread? Yet John states the Last Supper was the night before (the night he was betrayed) and his body was taken down from the cross before the Passover. Who is correct, Rob?

The early Church retained the Old Testament even though anti-Semites like Marcion had nothing to do with the Jewishness of Christianity. Are you an anti-Semite?

Your argument about living bread is a theological interpretation for polemical use. I don't buy it. It reminds me of the symbolic interpretation of the Liturgy as being a Life of Christ. Even the late Schmemann had a few words about this tendency. Let the liturgy stand for what it is and not what we theologize about it. The same for the Synoptics. Were they bad Roman Catholics holding erroneous unorthodox errors for their insistance on calling the Last Supper a Passover Meal? Don't forget that Christ is our New Pasch/Passover. We sing the Paschal Kanon and hymns at Paschal Matins to remind us of Christ being the New Passover. The themes of heaven like leaven and Christ being a Passover reflect a theological interpretation of the Christ event in the Gospels. We can get lost when we reduce these narratives to historicism or gnostic theology. Polemics loves both. Yet our Gospels are seemingly contradictory here.


Elias

For those of us of mixed Greek/Jewish
ancestry, the Pascha/Passover "convergence"
can be a very problematic psychological
event. This year, the perennial issue of
"why?" the slaughter of the Jews during the
Great War of 1939-45 is complicated by the
Supreme Pontiff's belated apology to "God
and mankind" for errors in judgement and
morality that made victims of
millions...millions!!!...of, for the most
part, simple people who had the same simple
dreams and fantasies that all humans have;
who just wanted to live...that is all..just
wanted to love and live amd had no real
interest at all in the abstract ideas of
religion, politics, and economics that
deepened the psychosis of their murderers
and drove these demented butchers into a
frenzy of slaughter unprecedented in human
history. Others were driven to silence by
the poisonous intoxicants of greed,
prejudice, and fear. The rest is history!
Now the pontiff, more than 50 yrs.
after the fact, comes before us in "sackloth
and ashes" and we are supposed to be
grateful?...in awe of his humanity, his
humility? Maybe Ukrainian Catholics and
other Slavic Catholics might feel absolved
of their crimes now..after all the pontiff
has declared to the world..the whole world
and to God that they are not just an "Easter
people" but a MIA CULPA people truly sorry
for their
manifold sins.But I don't think so. For
most of the history of Eastern European
Christianity, the killing of Jews wasn't
even considered a crime; it was a patriotic
duty.Therefore, why repent? What is there to
repent of? Here..alas!!!..Catholics and
Orthodox could agree: In the name of the
Prince of Peace, Christendom must be purged
of the perfidious Jews...for the love of
Christ and the True Faith.(Catholics and
Orthodox get a little "antsy" here.) And
here, for once, the Uniats were not stuck
in- between! They found a place where they
truly belonged with the Big Boys, to the
East or to the West, they were at home! In
fact, the Ukrainian Catholics served the
Hitlerite regime with a devotion equal to
that of the Germans. "..and the streets ran
red with the blood of Jews..for the sake of
Christ..the Prince of Peace...we paint the
gutters red with the blood of Jews." So now
,almost a half-century after the fact, the
Supreme Pontiff, dressed in "ashes and
sackcloth, comes before the world asking
forgiveness. But he is asking the
forgiveness of the living. We, the living,
can't forgive. We are not the victims. The
victims are dead! Let this horror of
history stand as a memorial to the dead and
a lesson for the living that a faith
-practice mired in the muck of
merry-go-round rhetoric and
mindless-soulless esoteric ritual can never
serve as backbone for the moral response
demanded of all sincere believers in the
presence of the Hitlers and other butchers
who come into the world to deface the image
of God in our midst: The image of Christ,
true God and true Man, King of the Jews and
Jew above all Kings! "Religion" just isn't
enough!

[This message has been edited by soulsearcher (edited 04-19-2000).]

Soulsearcher,

An estimated 13 million Ukrainians were starved to death by Stalin. Who was to save them? Archbishop Andrei Sheptesky saved many Jews in L'viv by making false baptismal certificates for them. The Jews in Israel even named a wooded park after him in his honor.

Elias

Elias,

I'm thankful that someone wrote something in response to the charge place by Soulsearcher. We know that the Serbs stood against Hitler at great costs to them and that other states in the area were if not always complicitous, did not resist very strenuously. What part did the Byzantine Catholic Church play in colluding with the Nazi's in handing over Jews? Does Soulsearcher exaggerate or does he speak accurately? Where do we turn for evidence?

Dan Lauffer

Dear Soulsearcher,
A few years ago, a couple of men were arrested in NC and convicted of holding slaves. Unbelievable, eh? But that doesn't mean that NC is a slaveholding state. It means that there were some baaaad North Carolinians who did not follow the laws of their state.

It is that way with the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church teaches *against* murder; people who murder are acting outside the Church even were they to be priests. The Pope was asking for forgiveness (as I understand it) for crimes committed "in the name" of the Church or by "representatives" of the Church even when the Church had nothing to do with it or even repudiated it (ie, the Sack of Constantinople) upon learning about it.

At the same time that some people allowed their lower natures to be overwhelmed by what was going on around them, there were also people who kept on their path towards God. At the same time that "Ukrainian Catholics" were butchering Jews, other Catholics were risking and giving their lives to help Jews. Who was following the precepts of Christ and the Church? Not those who followed the pagan Hitler. By acting in such a non-Catholic way they were actually cutting themselves off from the grace of God and from the Church.

If the living can hold onto anger, then the living can forgive. If I am angry about something that happened to my great great grandmother, I *need* to forgive... because nearly every day I pray, "Forgive [me my] trespasses as [I] forgive those who trespass against us..." You yourself show that a person who was not there (I am assuming you were not there, altho perhaps you were) can be angry about what happened. Forgiveness is a letting-go of anger, an admission that "Vengeance is Mine, sayeth the Lord." Non-forgiveness is holding onto the anger, whether the crime was committed against us or not, but ultimately every crime is committed against God, so we mere mortals must forgive and step out of the way of His justice.


You said: "the Supreme Pontiff's belated apology to "God and mankind" for errors in judgement and morality that made victims of millions..." The Church did not make errors resulting in those deaths--the Church spoke out against and worked against what was happening to such an extent that the Chief Rabbi of Rome was inspired to investigate and then convert to Catholicism.

It was not "errors" that led to the deaths of millions; it was evil and sin. It was pride, it was greed, it was lust for power, but when you get down to brass tacks, it was our wounded human nature run rampant.


You said: "Maybe Ukrainian Catholics and other Slavic Catholics might feel absolved of their crimes now..." The individuals involved were not absolved of their guilt by the Pope's action. In order for the sins of the individuals to be absolved, each would need to go to Confession and repent.


You said: "For most of the history of Eastern European Christianity, the killing of Jews wasn't even considered a crime; it was a patriotic duty." Patriotic being... national, not Church-related. The leaders of the nations involved are the ones who need to repent here. Those leaders lied if they said that it was a Christian duty; it wouldn't be the first time and it won't be the last, but in any case, it's certainly not the Church's fault someone lied and said it's ok to do something against what your Church teaches.


You said: "Let this horror of history stand as... a lesson for the living that a faith-practice mired in the muck of merry-go-round rhetoric and mindless-soulless esoteric ritual can never serve as backbone for the moral response demanded of all sincere believers in the presence of the Hitlers and other butchers who come into the world to deface the image of God in our midst: The image of Christ, true God and true Man, King of the Jews and Jew above all Kings! "Religion" just isn't enough!" Absolutely!

Religion wasn't enough for many of those who did wrong during the war. These days they would be cafeteria Catholics or worse. They are proof that there are bad Catholics in the Church, not that the Church is bad. If someone were "improving" as a Nazi, then he was becoming a worse person, if someone improves as a Catholic, he becomes a better person.


You said that you come from a heritage of Judaism and Cath0licism. Have you spoken to others of this background? I know that there is a Catholic (Western) apologist who converted from Judaism (with a detour to evangelical Christianity). I just get the feeling that there is a bit of a clash within you because of this and that you are trying to work it out--I may be wrong. My daughter worries because she is part Irish and part British...

[This message has been edited by Philothea (edited 04-20-2000).]

Reverend: 1-Exaggeration? No. Sarcasm? Yes. 2-Archbishop Andrew? Yes,he was a saint. But for every Andrew there were 10 Ukrainian Catholcs serving as volunteers in the SS, often as garrison troops in SS death camps. Ukrainians did the dirty work. The Serbs? Which ones? Partisans or Chetniks? They weren't consistent. Sometimes they saved Jews and Gypsies, sometimes they betrayed them. The Catholic Croatians were consistent: They were notorious Nazi
collaborators and responsibe for the deaths of thousands of Yugoslav Jews and Gypsies as well as the forced conversion of Serbs to Catholicism. The "convert or else" method. The Bulgarians tried to save their Jews, just like the Danes. Many Bulgarian Jews did not survive. The Greeks,at great danger to themselves, struggled to protect Greek Jews who were looked upon by the Greek Orthodox population as Greeks with a different religion.Alas, many Greek Jews did not escape the Nazi net and were transported to the death camps; many did not survive. My 82 yr.old mother did, as did most of her family as they escaped to Turkey where she met my Greek Orthodox(but Communist) father. These are the facts and, as Aristotle said: "There is nothing more stubborn than a fact and nothing as disturbing." As far as your as question as to the "position" of the Byzantine Catholic Church,after the bodies are counted, what difference does it make? We are not talking about abstractions and hypotheticals but real human beings. The proper question is: "How did real flesh and blood individual Byzantine Catholics behave? The facts are, many behaved like savages and some of them were priests! Now, those are the facts. And let us not dishonor the dead by flying off into illusion land and sugar coat the slaughter of millions by a perverted launch into a theoretical charade about the nature of the church etc,etc. Finally, you will find all the material you need to confirm these facts in even a mediocr pulic library or surf the net.

Friends in Christ,

Apologies are good. Forgiveness is good. Yet a very great question remains and Soulsearcher will not let it be forgotten. Neither should any of us. The Jews must struggle with the question: "Why did God allow us to be butchered?" All Christians must struggle with the question: "Why did Christians butcher?"

If we have never struggled with that before today is a very good day to do so.

A sinner,
Dan Lauffer

Reverend:1- Another important question: Why did God allow 13 million Ukrainians to die? 2-The pure and undefiled church does not exist; it is only a theological concept with no grounding in earth-centered reality. Therefore,I reject such a concept. Historically, Holy Mother Church wears a skirt that is drenched in blood. My personal library is heavy with texts that record this fact...in case anyone missed that..."record the fact".... that not only did Holy Mother Church teach her children that murder was permissible against a whole variety of heretics and infidels, but it was a holy duty. The Church was consistent:She taught murder and practiced murder,even Popes! What is a Crusade but butchery! It isn't a bingo game. Come down to earth and face the harsh reality that the Church has often taught that "evil is good and good is evil." This is a fact! No amount of hypothetical nonsense to the contrary can obviate that fact! I know I speak for other Jewish Catholics, Greek and Latin,(all three of us!) when I say that the first word spoken for Holy Mother Church must be spoken against her. We must become adults and take responsibility for the past: the good and the evil. We act and think like moral dwarfs. Enough of that! The Pope is too glib. These are profound and very deep moral issues that must be approached in a serious manner worthy of their importance: Papal theatrics and public displays are not enough.A glib: "Gee, we're sorry, but the Church is untainted," is a diabolical display of insensitivity and moral ineptitude. No one can convince me that God could be that irresponsible. Philothea: I can't forgive another for the sins they have inflicted on others. I can't absolve a Ukrainian SS guard of the murderous sin of injecting a 5 yr. old Jewish child with carbolic acid after rapeing her: The list of atrocities reaches to eternity. But that is a "real world" example. (Hello...is anyone awake out there?) Your concept of the Church is too, far too abstract, for me to adhere to . By abstracting he Church to the high heavens, you essentially
remove her from moral responsibility. I will never accept this concept even if it is the official teaching of the Church: I can't be that morally schizophrenic. (Before I forget: Have you ever heard of the St. Bartholomew's Day massacre in France of the Calvinists. The pope of that day, when hearing the news, was overjoyed and ordered special services in the parishes of Rome. What a good example to the faithful! (Please spare me the "morality is relative to the age" argument. Are the Ten Commandments "relative to the age." No! They are apodictic truths.) .....And Holy Mother Church, Her skirts drenched in blood preaches that "good is evil and evil is good." Kyrie eleison!

[This message has been edited by soulsearcher (edited 04-21-2000).]

Dear Soulsearcher,
You bring a very serious topic to the forum.
My people( the Arabs) were killed in the crusades, but i don't believe any sin belongs to the Church. The Church is a Whole made up of individual men infected with fallen nature. When a crime or sin is commited, that sin belongs to he(or she) who commited it. When i commit a sin it is not "the Church" who has sinned, but me and me alone. Even if large numbers of Catholics commited a great sin, that sin still belongs only to those who commited it or approved of it. The Church cannot be an agent of evil, but men in the Church can.

"Why did God allow 13 million Ukrainians to die?"
The same question is, why does God allow evil? a Mystery, something we cannot fully grasp here. We must remember that God has given us Free Will, Men can't blame on God the evil they choose.
I don't believe the Popes apology can be seen as theatric or glib.
Lets not allow the Church to become the scapegoat for the crimes of men in the Church. Thats the way i see it. Peace of Christ to you and to all.

In Christ Jesus,
Khaled

[This message has been edited by Khaled (edited 04-21-2000).]

Dear Brother Kahled: If Isaac can disagree with Ishmael,I must disagree. A whole is always the sum of its parts. It isn't a void, self-existent. Therefore, I must assume that the Church(The Whole) must also be a sum of its parts. If the parts(the people of God) are "good" then the Whole(The Church) will be "good." If the parts(the people of God) are "evil" then the Whole(The Church) will be "evil," if the parts(the people of God are a combination thereof) then the Whole(The Church) is also a "combination thereof." All I am saying is that the Church is not just an abstract idea floating around in Plato's fantasy world of pure and undefiled archetypes. "The All is in One and the One is in All." The Church is also the free moral agent whose freedom is the sum of the actions of the people of God. You are a blood kinsman-a fellow Semite-and our unique gift to Holy Mother Church, the True Catholic Apostolic Church united under the Successors of St. Peter, is the practical approach to faith and holiness: Catholicism must be lived in the now, in this world, in real concrete ways that serve our neighbors. I refuse to believe that Catholicism is an exercise in abstractions. The mysterion(sacraments) are not abstractions, but REAL(excuse me for screaming)gifts of grace in material form-not ideas! Our ideas about the church must transcend rhetoric: Catholicism must be loved by living it; living it begins with how we treat our neighbors and.....our enemies. I mentioned the Ukrainians because many Christian always assume six million Jews died during the Holocaust because of The Holy One's curse for rejecting Yeshua Ha'Meshiach. If that is true,who did the hapless Ukrainians reject? It is a point I raise to help people think. To do what Jews love to do: Ask hard questions. A blessed Pascha to you, dear blood kinsman. Christ is Melech!

Dear Khaled,
I believe you are in denial since the Catholic Church was responsible for the Crusades and many other atrocities yet to be named. I would like to believe that the Roman Catholic Church is the Church in Christ that did not commit such crimes. Also I would like to believe that the Popes were infallibile. However, the fact of the matter is the Catholic Church did commit crimes knowingly and I suppose unknowingly and that the Popes were fallibile. Would you care to start a new topic on why would the Popes and the Roman Catholic Church be fallibile? Many Roman polemicists defend and deny any wrongdoings by Popes or their church. Why cant they just tell the truth as it is without the exagerations and coverups? Try this food for thought.

Mr. Schweiss: The Catholic Church has been the great enemy of the Jewish people for the greater part of the last two millenia:Early church councils passing laws against the practice of the Jewish religion in certain parts of Europe; the expulsion of the Jews from Spain/Portugal;various Inguisitions; church-led pogroms in Poland and Ukraine; and a general poisoning of the minds of Catholics by a constant reference (by popes, bishops, and others) to Jews as Christ-killers, etc. The Russians were also notorious anti-semites and, to a degree, still are. But other Orthodox countries, especially the very civilized and intelligent Greeks, have been comparatively Jew friendly. With your extensive knowledge of Orthodoxy would you like to venture why?

Dear Robert,
Hello,i must admit i do like talking to you here at BFO. Firstly, YES, there have been Popes, bishops,priests, and lay Catholics who have commited great sins. No one in their right mind could deny this. However, It seems that you misunderstand the doctrine of Papal infallibilty. The Pope is only infallible when speaking Ex Cathedra, and this is restricted to pronouncements of Faith or Morality ONLY. So indeed the Pope can and does sin, as have the Popes through out history. Again i would make the distinction between "the Church" and "Men in the Church" For example: is the whole Orthodox church guilty for the Crime of the saking of Latin Churches in Constantinople, then taking the Blessed Sacrament from the Latin Churches and throwing it in the street? No of course not. Only those men who commited that sin, and those who approved of it are guilty.
In Christ Jesus,
Khaled

Dear Khaled,
Ex cathedra means from the throne or chair
of St. Peter. I know from history the number of Popes who spoke from their chairs that caused much chaos. Where on earth is the faith or morality with most of the corrupted Popes in history? Is this the saying of "Do as I say and not what I do" approach? The devil can stand on a throne and proclaim that he is Christ. Who on earth proclaimed the Pope to be infallible other than himself in 1870? This is a foreign teaching not to be found in the Early Church. Polemicists often refer to certain Church Fathers by manipulating their words to validate a proposterous teaching such as the Infallibility. Why aren't the Byzantine Catholics obliged to believe this doctrine? Ask them. Some may and some may not. The truth is that it is a distortion of the role of a bishop who desires ecclesiastical control. It is a one-man show who can do things alone such as having 21 so-called Ecumenical Councils. That has been the problem with Rome: doing things alone without the proper guidance that have led to much historic problems. The proper guidance that should have been done in conjunction with the Orthodox Patriarchs and without the thought of Supremacy which has led her off the straight path.

Dear Soulseacher,
The name is spelled S W E I S S. I have studied the problems that have haunted the Jews for quite a long time. The Jews in Europe had suffered much in comparison to life in the Middle East and during Islamic periods. Today I don't know of any civilized people or nations because all are corrupt. In regards to "the intelligent Greeks" being Jew friendly I don't know. I can only speculate that perhaps it is not in the Greek psyche to wage violence against another people as war has been waged against them by Muslim Turks. The Greeks have had their lands occupied and their populations were transferred. Perhaps they suffered oppression as much as the Jews and could relate as to why. Maybe you have a better answer than I do.

I believe many sincere Catholics adhere to your definition of the Church: A nebulous charade completely cut off from reality and absolved of any moral culpability; the "mommy that can do no wrong." I know that I am spinning my wheels trying to prove the point but, as I flee this Sodom and Gomorah lunatic asylum known as the Catholic Church, I ask all Catholics to become adults and refrain from an immature attachment to the church that even a five year old would be mature enough to reject. Grow up!

Dear soulsearcher,
Who is being absolved of moral culpability? Those who commit the sin are those who are guilty of the sin. Perhaps there is only a linguistic difference between us.Again i can't see "the church" a whole being guilty of the sin of individual members. I'm a very small part of the church, and when a catholic in germany sins, that sin is his not mine. Sin is only commited by persons,and their personal guilt is NOT a communally shared thing. The Church does not teach that her individual members cannot be evil. The way i see it is, if i take your theory all sin is communal and shared, even by people who are innocent. Correct me if i misunderstand your point. Grow Up?
In Christ Jesus,
Khaled

If you say to me: "All the members of the Hadad family are evil, but the family itself is good, pure, and undefiled." And I respond to you: "Pasha Khaled, you're nuts!", would you be surprised? But this is what some Catholics seem to do-against the facts! The state doesn't have such a delusionary understanding of the Church. Ask any bishop whose diocese has been sued because of the actions of a child-molesting priest. The institution, which supposedly is pure and above all taint of sin, is held morally-legally culpable by the state.Since child molestation is a sin, the Church is in this case considered a "sinner." Shocking, isn't it! Holy Mother Church in dirty linen!
Holy Mother Church....A Sinner! About communal sin: Adam and Eve and their descendents and original sin...I wonder? Touche' on the "grow up" hyperbole. Someday I hope we will be able to admit that the Church is inherently, by its very nature a sinning sinner, and not an abstraction ontologically divine and therefore incapable of error or acts of evil that originate from its very nature:its moral ying and yang if you will. You can't always trust the teaching authority of the Church because that authority can err diabolically with terrible consequences. That makes me a heretic.

Wowwwie!!!! What a pissing match this string is!!

I thought that it was bad over at the Une Fides forum when the Fundamentalists and Jack Chick maniacs would come in and start to throw around all their pejoratives. That pales in comparison to this.

Unity? Huh! Not in my lifetime! Not if Robert is representative of Orthodoxy. And he isn't even HOCNA, who are so fundamentalist that they consider other Orthodox to be heretics. Some pitch for unity.

I don't know one tenth of the history you folks do and perhaps I really don't want to if all it is used for is a convenient club with which to bash others over the head. My search has been for Truth. I have found it in the Eucharist as opposed to the "Real Absence" of Protestantism. I have found it in the documents of the Early Fathers rather than in the heretical ravings of Calvin and Luther. This is a shared glory between East and West, but rather than joy in that glory, you are too busy picking fights over what amounts to essentially nothing or remembering old wounds like the Hatfields and the McCoys.

Robert, why don't you go tell St. Augustine that the office of the papacy is a farce? Or St. Ignatius? Or St. Jerome? Or any of the Fathers? I don't think you would get much of a hearing from them, based on what I have read of their writings. You are acting just like some of the Protestant bigots who keep badgering me about my soon to be conversion to full union with the Church -- all they can do is trash the Church, talk about all the whoremonger popes and pedophile priests, etc. I told my best friend the other day to knock it off when he started that routine. Either talk doctrine or don't talk to me, I warned him. I would say the same about everything I have read here. But rather than talk about doctrine with the idea of unity, all I see is continuing vilification, pejorative, etc.

I suppose it is great fun and certain wonderful for the old ego, but I leave tonight shaking my head in sorrow.

Guys, one day you are going to wake up and realize that the real enemy to Christ's true doctrines are those idiot Protestants who don't have an exegetical clue and who continue to deceive multitudes with their dog-and-pony show routine they misnomer as worship?

Perhaps then we might see the hatchets buried, the old wounds forgotten, the forgiveness of Christ extended, and the unity our Lord prayed for.

Sad. Real, real sad.

Defensor Fides (aka TruthSeeker)

Dear Soulsearcher,
I can see this discussion leading to a whole entirely new topic about the nature of sin and why it happens and who is and isn't immune from it. Perhaps, you or I can start a new topic on the creation of sin. One thing is for certain: no human being is immune from sin and will die because the wages of sin is death. This is the ultimate destiny of our human existence on the earth. Before we can exit this human reality through death I would hope and pray to have contributed in a positive manner on other peoples lives. To live the life as Christ called us to live. All this arguing on this forum will not lead us out of our human deplorable condition and state of sin. One's religious affiliation can be irrelevant in the face and state of sin if one does not seek the truth and sincerely focus on their own theosis. I, for one, like to engage non-Orthodox in any type of discussion by which we can find common grounds. In this forum, I see and agree as well as disagree on the views about Orthodoxy and Catholicism. There are, I am sure, many honest people such as the Catholics who can speak the truth of past historical sins and atrocities. There are also Catholics who do not know their history and become all too defensive as well as polemical in order to safeguard their faith and Pope. Either way, mankind has painfully suffered by its own hand rather seeking the Hand of God. I have seen wickedness from every people regardless of their religious affiliations. According to Orthodoxy, Christ was the only sin-free being who established and gathered His Church, His Body, and the "ground and pillar of Truth" to unite us miserable, deplorable and unworthy sinners by restoring our original humanity(theosis). This is easily said than done because of our fallen state. The Orthodox Church has many spiritual remedies and tools to help us fight and to endure through this state of fall.
I would like to encourage you to view the Fall of mankind through an Orthodox mindset. The Roman Catholic view is quite different and unfortunately not reconcilable with Orthodoxy. I can only guess that the Byzantine Catholics can have either options as acceptable. But I would feel compelled very strongly to refute Catholicism's view of The FAll if I am asked why I don't accept its validity. This topic began with someone's curiosity as to "when will the Orthodox Churches" apologize to which I have to say they don't know what they are talking about. The Catholic Church needs to continue in her path of confessions and apologies rather than demand it from her victims such as the Orthodox Church and the Jews for example. The visit of the Pope to the Middle East is at least a good gesture for reconciliation with whom the Catholic Church has persecuted whether by words or deeds. As for the Orthodox Church she has been persecuted by both words and deeds by the Catholic Church. There has never been an Orthodox conspiracy to take over Rome or do what Rome has done so poorly with non-Roman Catholics. When the bishop of Rome(Pope) speaks he represents all of his churches. When an Orthodox bishop(Patriarch) speaks he speaks for his church's jurisdiction. When all the Orthodox Patriarchs speak and agree together they speak for all their churches combined together. This would be consider the Ecumenical Church in Christ. Unfortunately, Rome is no longer part of this Ecumenical Church because she believes she is the Ecumenical Church alone. What happens when you do things alone? Either you succeed or you fail to succeed. I don't have to say where Rome is at since she is not where she should be. Rome needs to be helped and brought back to the unity of the Ecumenical Church. I think 1 Corinthians 12 would basically summarize the beliefs about how the Orthodox Church views herself in relation to her members. According to 1 Cor. 12:25 "there should be no schism in the body(Church)". If there was a schism in the Body of Christ then there would be no Orthodox Church. Since Rome separated and left we in the Orthodox Church will not offer a Roman or Byzantine Catholic the Eucharist. This is unfortunate for them. The Orthodox Church is not only a gathering for sinners and the righteous but to expose the Kingdom of God on earth. There is nothing inherently evil about mankind or the Church. Both live and are exposed in and to the condition of our fallen universe. The meaning of the word 'church' means to assemble or gather'. Therefore Christ came to gather us fallen people and to reconcile and to restore our humanity. This is the perfection we strive for everyday of our lives. This perfection must be prayed for by asking Christ and all the Saints to intercede for us. We go to Church in order to aid us in our journey into Christ. Our journey is flying by day and night. When will we come to our senses and begin having the mind of Christ? Life is too short and we need the power from above to save us from furthering the calamities of the past. The world views we hold today which may seem to be the truth may not be the truth as we endure in our personal quest of theosis. Take me for example. I was baptized Orthodox, grew up and raised Roman Catholic, became agnostic, returned to Orthodoxy and I am forever working on overturning my imperfections or I should say working on my theosis. At any rate, I am sure the writing here is most likely of my imperfections. It is difficult to express the fullness of my faith in clear and concise wording due to the state of sin I live in. May God lead us to the straight path only found in His Logos.

Dear Brother Ed,
I am not a bishop or any special person that soley represents Orthodoxy. You truly need to study Christian history from both the Western and Eastern angles. How on earth did you find the Truth in the Eucharist when you are not a member of either the Catholic or Orthodox Church? Are you a catechumen? At any rate, if Blessed Augustine was still alive today he would deny that the Papacy was Roman Catholic. If all the Early Church Fathers would resurrect from the dead today they certainly would not recognize the Papacy for what she stands for. You have attained an improper and skewed understanding
of the role of the Papacy versus the legitimate role of the Primacy. Be careful of Roman polemics and manipulation of Patristic theology.
Please refrain on labeling a group of people idiots because there are idiots everywhere. I know of many sincere and knowledgeable Protestants that would not appreciate the name-calling. Remember: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Many sincere and loving Orthodox have come from a Protestant background. I certainly have not "trashed" anyone or church but have discussed the true issues that affect unity that need to be resolved. The Byzantines knowlingly have forfeited Orthodoxy for the sake of unity with Rome. Please note that the creation of the Uniate Churches was done in spite of the Orthodox churches. Rome hoped at one time that she would subjucate the Orthodox Church under her authority but that has never happened and never will. Food for thought: what is the reasoning for a redefinition of the meaning of the Papacy by involving the Orthodox Church? Why now and not before? The current meaning of Papacy is but arrogancy. I pray that does change with the involvement of the Orthodox Church and for Rome's return. "Let us pray to the Lord. Lord have mercy."

In Christ,
Robert Sweiss

To all:

Now you know why the East looks upon the human condition as a 'sickness.' We are all sick! We murder our unborn children, we fight wars over fossils, we try to break up companies when our own government has many monopolies, we do drugs and alcohol, we do very harmful things to OURSELVES, we evangelize with swords, we practice polemics and not the love of Christ, ...

and we wonder why their is schism in the church. We are all schismatics! We are all sinners. None of us can remain standing by the harlot and cast the first stone.

All of this because the Pope asked forgiveness! I can see the anger if he asked for another Crusade to crush Islam or the Orthodox Church, but anger because he asked forgiveness?

I WOULD NEVER GO TO SOME OF YOU FOR CONFESSION OF MY SINS. YOU MIGHT KILL ME.

You are a bunch of sickies. Go and get healed! You really need it. Now I know why many Orthodox Christians found it easy to embrace Islam (in those places where the sword wasn't used). You people make me sick. No wonder why our youth detest religion; we have such bad examples of militant religio-nuts. Out to die for any cause but the one our Lord died for. There is not forgiveness in your heart because you rely totally on your own power and not God's power to heal and forgive. The medical profession sometimes has better bedside manners than you pompous religious bigots. This all is the sickness of religion, not the cure.


Elias




[This message has been edited by Elias (edited 04-24-2000).]

Robert wrote:

"The current meaning of Papacy is but arrogancy."

Arrogancy?

What century are you living in, Robert? Have you read or followed NOTHING that this current Pope has said or done? I find the indifference of many Orthodox to John Paul II quite striking, and only paralleled by the indifference showed to him by so many unfaithful Catholics.

This Pope has done more for the cause of peace and unity between our Churches than any Orthodox hierarch on the planet, though some have done more than others.

If you have not yet done so, and by your posts I would wager you haven't, I would recommend reading some of the writings of this current Pope, starting with Ut Unum Sint and Orientale Lumen.

Otherwise, in my opinion, it is your assessment of the "current meaning" of the papacy which is more reprensentative of ill-defined and ill-informed "arrogancy".

Gordo, sfo

I am at fault. I started this "conversation"to vent my own frustrations and thinly or not so thinly disguised hatred for the Catholic Church while trying to convince a lunatic-fringe part of my personality that I was engaged in something positive that is nothing but a walk through hell for those who do not share my background and haven't a clue as to my frustations or world view. The only good thing to come out of this whole lunacy is my self-knowledge that I am not a Christian-there is no way I can avoid the obvious any longer and cling to a sentimental attachment to Christianity that lacks content(other than bitterness) and manifests itself only in negative tones. You're right-I have been acting like a religious nut and I am glad you have brought an end to this lunacy by interjecting yourself forcefully and helping me to grab hold of myself and say:"This is enough." Ironically, I have been seeing a rabbi for discussion and study and Friday past he said essentially what you said and said so well. My crypto-hatred for Christianity and the Nazarene will not go away by making whipping boys of individual Catholics. The only thing that works for me is when I pray the simple Hebrew prayers my relatives taught me as a child even though I was baptized Greek Orthodox. That connection with a desire to connect with the Unknown God does help; lifts me out of my ego and places me in a ethnic-cultural spirituality that I feel safe in. I hate your Jesus and I hate your blood-drenched church but, I hate none of you. If I could, I would wipe these lunatic posts clean. Sorry.

Soulsearcher,

One would rarely if ever find such honesty among the protestants I have known. I am still technically a protestant but soon, if it be God's will, I will be a Byzantine Catholic. Most protestants I have known are convinced that neither Catholic nor Orthodox are Christians and that they themselves are above repentance.

I thank God for your last post.

Dan Lauffer

Dear Soulsearcher,

I am very happy for you--you have found a way to unite yourself with God in a peaceful way. I am sorry that you have been so tormented by the past.

May God bless you on your path.

Dear Dozier,
As long as you cling to the teaching of the Infallibility and Supremacy of the Pope that is not part of Holy Tradition it remains to be rebuked and refuted. To continue believing that the Pope of Rome is superior to all others(Patriarchs) is but the sin of pride. Get rid of it then we can seriously talk about genuine unity. I think many Orthodox as well as myself admire Pope John Paul II. We have nothing terrible to say about him. We hope he draws closer to the Orthodox Church and draws the Roman Catholic Church as well. I have read many papal encyclicals written by the Pope which have not effectively drawn the Orthodox Church. The Pope does not have many years left. We also wonder how the next Pope will be like in terms of working things out with Orthodoxy. History has only shown us the major drift that continues to this day. There is a mindset in Catholicism that is and would never be reconciliable to Orthodoxy and probably vice verse. Byzantine Catholicism or Uniatism are neither the appropriate solutions or models between the East and the West. Papalism has no room in Orthodoxy and Orthodox understanding. Do you have the solution you think that will attract the Orthodox Church to the papacy and vice verse? Is it really possible? In my opinion I don't think so. I mean this sincerely. I do not perceive in the near future the doctrine of Papal Infallibility being abrogated by any Pope yet to come. Perhaps when this does occur it can heal the wounds between the two churches and they would workout many other details.

In Christ,
Robert Sweiss

Dear Elais,
I sense some of your emotional frustrations and I can sympathize with them. However, schisms are unfortunate but I would have to say that the Ecumenical Church of the Apostles as proclaimed in the Creed is indivisible. The Holy Spirit has not mislead the Orthodox Church. Once one begins to believe in the schism of the Body of Christ they at once imply the abandonment of the Holy Spirit. Maybe you have a different understanding than mine. I view the Church from her view rather than my view. The Orthodox Church proclaims boldly that she is the ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, and APOSTOLIC CHURCH; the CHURCH OF THE SEVEN ECUMENICAL COUNCILS; and the Bride & Body of Christ. The current Pope has a great spirit and his labor is much. This is probably one of the greatest Popes of all times for the Roman Catholic Church- alive in our midst. Yet the process of reconciliation is going to be a very long one and I don't know and don't think it will happen while I still have my being. Maybe God will overturn what I said and draw the two churches together while alive. I don't know. However, I do know where the Church is but not where it is not.
By the way it has been a while since we spoke. How are you doing? I pray that you are doing fine. Did you celebrate Pascha yet or are you going to celebrate this week? Just curious.

In Christ,
Robert Sweiss

To Rob S.,

I celebrated Pascha this past Sunday. Too much food! But it was good.


To Soulsearcher.,

Do the Psalms.


Elias

Robert -

Thank you for clarifying your intention behind the statement "contemporary meaning of the papacy". It's clear to me now that you didn't intend to malign the current Pope, so much as the definition of the role of the papacy.

I apologize for my overreaction, but your constant attacks on my faith tend to grate my nerves after a while. It's not that you are convincing in your argumentation, it's just that I believe in the Catholic faith, and you abhor it - or at least what you consider to be its distortions of the apostolic faith.

What's more, your hatred for Catholic doctrine in areas of disagreement with the Orthodox at times prevents you from dealing respectfully with the sensibilities of members of this forum who disagree with you. (Although, there are notable exceptions among some of your posts.) For instance, you refer to Catholic teaching on the papacy as "papalism" and Byzantine Catholics as "uniates", despite the fact that you KNOW that these terms are pejoratives, intended only to elicit reactions and inflict insults on those who are equally passionate about what they believe. In short, at times you can be a religious e-bully with a keyboard picking fights in the e-sandbox.

Such a manner is not representative of the Orthodoxy that I love and share with many Orthodox brothers and sisters, including a close friend of mine who is an Orthodox priest. There is no glibbness in their words or attitude, just simple faith and love for what they believe and desire to share. For me, their example in word and deed is a simple, humble light leading to Christ. Yours is a hammer which wounds, but does not heal.

Before you respond to this post, and in the remaining days of your Great Fast, I would encourage you to take seriously to heart what I have written, asking yourself if your attitude and manner would be that of Saint Cyril and Methodius, or the great Saints Herman and Innocent of Alaska.

I wish you a Blessed Pascha.

Gordo, sfo

[This message has been edited by Dozier (edited 04-26-2000).]

Dear Dozier,
I am not really attacking your faith in Christ. My intentions have been to expose the inconsistencies by accepting union with Rome. In other words, the papacy is a distortion of primacy and it might take a while to come to a common understanding and agreement between the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church. I also believe in the catholic faith of the Orthodox Church and I certainly do pray that Rome to be reunited once again. History has shown time and time again
how Rome has tried to manipulate Orthodoxy under many Popes. I feel that the current Pope has good intentions. However, he needs to go beyond his good intentions with the Orthodox and place on the table the doctrines that alienate the Orthodox. In order to be "first among equals" Rome must be a servant of all(Mark 9:35). Try this analogy: If a waiter is going to serve you he better do his job well or else he will not be compensated nor recognized. If the waiter thinks he is in control of you I think you got another thing coming! This is what has happened with Rome being the waiter. The waiter tried to impose his food on the menu(teachings) on his customers rather than listening and respecting the wishes of the customers. Is it not clear that is why there is no Eucharistic sharing? The waiter wants to do and serve things his way rather than involving the participation and thoughts of his customers.
If the waiter cannot be respectful to one customer he will continue to repeat this manner at his own disposal. If he wants to do the job he has been hired to do he better read over his contract given from above. This contract has also been given to other similar waiters. A waiters job is a very difficult one but he is not the only one that is a waiter. Nor should he be domineering over other waiters but treating others with equality and appreciation. The Keys were not only given to St. Peter but to all the Holy Apostles for the glorification of God on high. All the Apostles were commissioned by Christ to do His work on earth as it is in Heaven. St. Peter was a leader and I don't believe he was searching for recognition but desired to serve. I tend to sense amongst Roman Catholics that they have a monopoly over him and that he cant really be the Apostle of the Orthodox Church. It can be argued that he was a leader in the Jerusalem and the Antiochian Church before Rome. At any rate, the words uniate and papalism are true to their meanings as I have stated. They are distortions of Apostolic Tradition.
Finally, you may be right about me being a religious "e-bully" with a keyboard. However, it may be a reaction to e-bull from Catholics that have distanced themselves from Orthodoxy. We all need humility especially myself being first amongst sinners. I wish you as well a blessed Pascha.

Christ Is Risen. Indeed He Is Risen.

>>At any rate, the words uniate and papalism are true to their meanings as I have stated.<<

Do you also consider the works "nigger" and "kike" true to their meanings and use them in your everyday conversations when talking about Blacks and Jews? If you were a guest in at a NAACP or B'nai-Brith Bulletin Board would you use these terms? Or did mama forget to teach you to not intentionally insult your hosts?

No offense, Robert, but anyone who reads your posts can only conclude that the central teaching of Orthodoxy is hatred of Catholicism.

Thanks Philothea. You have a kind heart; a rare quality very often missing among "true believers" of all religions. The Holy and Unknown One must love you very much. I am not an ungrateful person. Thank you. RS: I am also driven by a mission that is my new obsession and one I will soon be able to devote all my time to: retrieving Jews and bringing them home as the Holy One, Blessed be He, wills. My strategy is analogous to yours but my tactics are different and, I believe, more successful.(If 36 hrs., can be an indicator for success.) Since I live in South Florida and since I specifically desired to target Christians of Sephardic descent, I placed small ads in four shoppers tabloids(in Spanish and English) offfering information on the Spanish/Sephardic culture including a map of our immigration paths after we were exiled from Spain/Portugal. I would have been grateful to the Holy One if I had received just a handful of responses. My answering machine runneth over! Many Argentines and Brazilians have not forgotten their origins and are sincere(I hope!) about exploring their past. Here is the point: I invite "them"(my potential converts) to come to me, voluntarily. I don't intrude into their lives and I help preserve the order of peace in "the cosmos" by preserving the peace between souls. This(in Judaism) is a holy deed pleasing unto the Holy One, Blessed be He. Mi amado ha descendido a su yardin a apacentar en los huertos para solazarme y cogar rosas. La voz de mi amado llama: "Abreme, amada mia, las puertas de Sion que yo amo." Let your Catholics come to you and then teach them. Let us all, in our small way, preserve peace in the cosmos by preserving peace between souls. Let the Holy One call His(not our!)lost sheep to that special place of rest in Sion that is his decree in all individual and autonomous lives. O Holy One, Thine will be done! Not ours. Shalom to all sincere people and mercy on the insincere.




[This message has been edited by soulsearcher (edited 04-26-2000).]

Dear Mr. Jeff Y,
I think you need to accept the words uniate and papalism without viewing them as derogatory. Such words convey their heterodox meaning and understanding from an Orthodox view. You may not like it and I cant help you with that. That is the reality. I can help you by exposing what is not Orthodox in Catholicism. Would you care to start a new topic and lay everything out on the tables? I do not believe words such as uniates and papalism correspond and relay the same derogative and racist meanings of "nigger" and "kike". The words I have used are not out of ignorance nor racist but out of a proper and historical understanding.
Lastly, let's keep our mothers out of this and I don't think they would like to be thrown into something they would not like. My posts are for people like you who need to know the truth about Orthodoxy and Catholicism. You may view my posts as condescending on the errors of Catholicism but nevertheless Catholicism needs help, big time in relation to Holy Apostolic Tradition.

>>I do not believe words such as uniates and papalism correspond and relay the same derogative and racist meanings of "nigger" and "kike". The words I have used are not out of ignorance nor racist but out of a proper and historical understanding.<<

That is your personal opinion. However such words are pejoratives and considered insults to Byzantine Catholics, who host this forum. Since you have already set yourself up as the judge of what it is to be Orthodox we should only expect you to set yourself up as the judge of what is acceptable or offensive to Byzantine Catholics. But then again, you are a convert with lots of hatred for Roman Catholics so of course you know better than the Church Father or the Orthodox bishops. Your lack of respect for others cheapens your witness of your version of Orthodoxy to the point where no one actually believes anything you say.

Dear Soulsearcher,
I wish you the best on your journey. If bringing the Jews back to Yaweh is your desire do so. There are as many Jews as well as Christians that fear not the Holy One. Judaism is limited to a certain people and creates the distinctions of one people versus another. That is not so with Orthodox Christianity. In fact, there have been many Jews who have made a conscientious to become Orthodox Christians and Priests. One may argue the same for Catholicism and Protestantism. If you are interested I can refer you to them. One Orthodox Priest,Fr. James Bernstien, was a former co-founder of Jews for Jesus and a former evangelical protestant. He is an interesting person who has found his home in the Orthodox Church. Even abroad in Jerusalem there have been Jews who converted to Orthodoxy. You have to ask yourself this honest question: what on earth would attract a Jew to Orthodox Christianity? This would be an interesting research! The history of the Jews converting to Catholicism over time has more cons than pros. I would like to believe otherwise but that is the reality of the West. You certainly have an interesting background of being a Greek and a Jew. Has you background been in any way a source of confusion in regards to religion or to Orthodoxy? Well, God be with you.

Dear Jeff Y,
Here we go again with this "personal opinion" issue. As long as you remain a Byzantine CAtholic you will always be known as a Uniate. We are taught in Orthodoxy to use good judgment in discerning what the Orthodox Church teaches and what she does not. Papalism is not taught but thank God it is rejected. That is the the last thing I need to hear from an Orthodox Bishop telling me he is infallible! I would like to tell you also that I am not a convert to Orthodoxy. I was baptized Orthodox as a child because my families were all originally Orthodox under the Jerusalem Patriarchy. I have returned to my roots over six years ago and realized that there is no salvation outside the Body of Christ,the Orthodox Church. Your church is a papal creation in order to subdue the Orthodox Church. Uniates sooner or later discover that they need to come back home to Orthodoxy. They get tired of being pounced on by ignorant Roman Catholic clergy as well as laity. I have no hatered for Roman Catholics. I just recently married one in my Church. I am praying for the Holy Spirit to convert her when the time is right. I also pray that the Holy Spirit will convert you to Orthodoxy. What I have to say to you may be insignificant to your mindset but is quite significant for those who don't think and respond the way you do. Please pray for the triumph of Orthodoxy.

Christ is Risen!

Robert S. sound a lot like the "Feenyists" the followers of Fr. Leonard Feeney who professed a very narrow view of the teaching "outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation."

Pado

>>Here we go again with this "personal opinion" issue. As long as you remain a Byzantine CAtholic you will always be known as a Uniate.<<

All of what you post is your personal opinion since it is usually backed up with nothing. Does it not arouse your curiosity that Orthodoxy (the Church, not you) generally avoids using terms which others find offensive? Of course I see your logic. As long as black people remain black they will always be known as 'niggers'. You are at least consistent.

When followers of the Holy Club in eighteenth century England were chided for following a Method to obtain a holy life they were called Methodists. It soon became a badge of honor. I happily convert to what is perjoratively called a "uniate" church. Suffering for Christ's sake is no dishonor and we are in obedience to Christ's high priestly prayer in John 17. When His prayer for unity is fulfilled and we cease to exist I will continue to praise the Lord for using us "uniates" to bring Him glory and the people of God much good.

Dan Lauffer

RS-Marriage is higher than the priesthood. Many years of joy mixed with the sorrows of life will make you wiser than you are now...which will make you very wise! I remember Bernstein; better Orthodox than evangelical. I can't see how any Jew who decides to accept the Nazarene as messiah could ever choose evangeical Christianity;it is intellectually insipid. At least with Orthodoxy they serve you a feast resplendent with brain food and Orthodoxy is very hospitable in the process: plenty for all to enjoy to their hearts' desires. Alas, in my case, I am more at peace with the Jesus of Tolstoy or Schweitzer than St. John Chrysostom or Aquinas. It is almost impossible to herd cats and Jews are more cat-like than sheep-like,therefore,a pope's or patriarch's nightmare. Although we often gather together as a "herd" to protect ourselves we do not "think like a herd." There is a variety of belief and unelief within Jewry that would drive a totalitarian,whether religious or secular, to the brink of insanity. That is probably why the popes, or at least the agents of the popes, had such a pathological-homicidal hatred for us and why they drove us from beautiful Spain after being there for over 1300 yrs; but the Sephardim, whether they settled in North Africa,the Balkans,Greece,Turkey etc., retained their Ladino-Judezo Spanish dialect and many other elements of Spanish culture. Jews are like "energy": you can't destroy them, you just re-arrange them. As far as being Greek and Jew: when I was young, I was more Greek than Jew until I was given a fictional account of the life of King David and I read the Diary of Ann Frank (I can barely think of her without getting a lump in my throat). That is where the big change began. Although I have a Greek last name, Kyriakos, I hardly think of being Greek. I talk too much. As it says in the Spanish-Jewish liturgical hymn I inserted in the previous post:"The voice of my beloved calls 'Open for me, my beloved, the doors of Sion, that I love.'" Happy Life!

RS-Marriage is higher than the priesthood. Many years of joy mixed with the sorrows of life will make you wiser than you are now...which will make you very wise! I remember Bernstein; better Orthodox than evangelical. I can't see how any Jew who decides to accept the Nazarene as messiah could ever choose evangeical Christianity;it is intellectually insipid. At least with Orthodoxy they serve you a feast resplendent with brain food and Orthodoxy is very hospitable in the process: plenty for all to enjoy to their hearts' desires. Alas, in my case, I am more at peace with the Jesus of Tolstoy or Schweitzer than St. John Chrysostom or Aquinas. It is almost impossible to herd cats and Jews are more cat-like than sheep-like,therefore,a pope's or patriarch's nightmare. Although we often gather together as a "herd" to protect ourselves we do not "think like a herd." There is a variety of belief and unelief within Jewry that would drive a totalitarian,whether religious or secular, to the brink of insanity. That is probably why the popes, or at least the agents of the popes, had such a pathological-homicidal hatred for us and why they drove us from beautiful Spain after being there for over 1300 yrs; but the Sephardim, whether they settled in North Africa,the Balkans,Greece,Turkey etc., retained their Ladino-Judezo Spanish dialect and many other elements of Spanish culture. Jews are like "energy": you can't destroy them, you just re-arrange them. As far as being Greek and Jew: when I was young, I was more Greek than Jew until I was given a fictional account of the life of King David and I read the Diary of Ann Frank (I can barely think of her without getting a lump in my throat). That is where the big change began. Although I have a Greek last name, Kyriakos, I hardly think of being Greek. I talk too much. As it says in the Spanish-Jewish liturgical hymn I inserted in the previous post:"The voice of my beloved calls 'Open for me, my beloved, the doors of Sion, that I love.'" Happy Life!

It's getting very bizarre in here - perhaps this thread should be closed. I no longer understand much of the stuff being thrown around - but I'm not sure I really want to.

But then, I'm one of those feline Jews, as well as being Uniate scum (I'm fat and female, too!) so I'm probably going to Hell in a bagel bag anyway.

Cheers (or something like it),

Sharon

Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

Actually, 'Uniate' can be an affectionate and charitable term. For instance, it can refer to those Orthodox Christians who desire "union" as opposed to those who wish not to fulfill Our Lord's prayer that we all be one. One may be proud to call himself/herself Orthodox, but surely not Christian.

Even the Impressionists adopted the term 'impressionist' which originally was meant to be derogatory. Now, their paintings are PRICELESS! - just like the union Eastern Christians enjoy while being in communion with Rome. We are the Monet's of Orthodoxy, and not of the old Parisian school.

Elias, uniate

I can't speak to the Jewish issue but, it is an historical fact that the Roman-rite of the Catholic Church is responsible, over the centuries, for the deaths of millions of Jews,Muslims,Protestants,Orthodox Byzantines,and Oriental Orthodox. These are verified facts that no mature person can deny. But many Romans are unable to accept these facts, like other writers to this forum have expressed. Those of you who scream at them like little children show your own ignorance and immaturity and set a bad example for those who might be interested in your religion. Your pope-patriarch is more honest and mature than you are. You praise him for asking forgiveness and then try to cover the facts or deny them by implying there is nothing to forgive. The Jewish rabbi and the Orthodox writer are much more honest and mature than you are. Now you are acting like the old Roman Church by suppressing their right to express themselves. Now...that is really bizarre! What are you so afraid of...the TRUTH? All dictatorial religions try to suppress the truth...especially the Roman church. This is an historical fact that is easily confirmed with a plethora of data. You (Catholics) almost destroyed our Mar Thoma Orthodox Church in India when the Portuguese invaded,and even worse, you created an uniate church that played the part of Judas Iscariotes and helped persecute their own Mar Thoma people. I understand you did the same in the Ukrainian lands where the Orthodox were driven from their churches by the Polish and Austro_Hungarians and the uniates cooperated. The same has happened in other regions where the Latins have forced uniate churches upon the people. The uniates should be ashamed of their lack of Christian ethics and betraying their own kinsmen into the hands of the Latins. And you expect us Jacobites, a very small and defenseless people but very brave and loyal, to respect you. Repent and change your evil ways and we will. We repent every day of our lives for our sins-please join us like brothers and do the same.

Mr.Elias: Certainly,sir,when the popes
repent of their arrogance and put
their imperial designs behind them, we
will fulfill the Divine Savior's
command that "all may be one."You are
right about uniates being
"Impressionists":you leave a bad
impression wherever you go! And you, a
uniate, question the Christianity of
an Orthodox. In the true "humble-
arrogance" of a Roman. I must add that
you might look upon Catholicism as
being an exercise in aesthetics but
our Mar Thoma Orthodox Church teaches
it is one of ethics;that must be why
we have never persecuted fellow
Christians while you Romans have.We
love to live our faith at a higher
level than you uniates evidently do.
Nothing personal and I am sorry to be
so blunt but you spoke first.

[This message has been edited by Mar Thoma (edited 04-27-2000).]

Mar Thoma,

Is your church the Antiochian variety or Indian? There are several Thomas Christian Churches from SW India that I lose track which church (Orthodox or Catholic) gobbled up who over the centuries.

Christianity speaks of dividing families but hoping for unity. There are no Jews or Greeks but there are national churches. Women are crowned in marriage equally with men but cannot offer the eucharist. The Gospels cannot agree on which day the Last Supper was celebrated but the churches can agree who is wrong in not accepting THEIR day as the day of the Last Supper (leavened or unleavened). Oh well.... at least we know who is to blame. The Orthodox blame the Popes, yet cooperated with the real enemy of communism. The Churches of the East suffered under their Muslim lords, but won't ask that they beg forgiveness. Don't want to hang at the Phanar. Yet a Pope who DOES ask forgiveness is spat upon just like Christ was spat upon by his tormentors. We are all sinners and schismatics. No one is blameless. The Orthodox reject the Evangelical's claim of an 'invisible church' but promote the same error to protect the virgin-like Orthodox Church which is not made up of sinners - only saints. Hmmmm. We are all crap needing His healing.

Elias


[This message has been edited by Elias (edited 04-27-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Elias (edited 04-27-2000).]

Brother in Christ: The Lord is Risen! I hope you will not sever my head for referring to you as brother! (I could probably think just as well without it) We are both St.Thomas and Syrian Jacobite. Our ties with the Chaldean Church were broken after the Portuguese invasion and we had to seek apostolic succession from our Jacobite brethren. We are what you would refer to as "monophysite" although this is a term too arcane and inaccurate to have much contemporary signifance. Your Church, the beautiful church, somewhat tarnished, maybe suffering from the wounds of life lived in the past like a harlot and not an immaculate bride of Christ, the church of union and unity broke the unity of our church and caused us great harm. But the Good Lord protected us from the evil machinations of your greedy hierarchs and we have survived.
But as Christ forgave the harlot, I forgive the Roman church her many and manifold sins. If I do not forgive, why would Christ forgive me? I admire the Chalcedonion Orthodox for protecting the faith. Your Roman church has been upset with schism and heresy especially in the 16th cent with the falling away of the protestants and in the 19th cent. with the falling away of the Old Catholics and the last cent.with the many heretical theologians who are the illegitimate children of a church at war with itself. Int he last few centuries, since the falling away of the Roman church, Orthodox have not been beset by heretics at all! Amazing. The Orthodox are ruled from a higher throne than that of St.Peter, The Throne of the Lord Christ in Paradise from which the Father sends forth the Holy Spirit to hover above His Orthodox Church and protect Her from the terrible schisms and heresies that afflict your so-called "infallible and united" church. Some day you will see the error of your ways and renounce Satan and all his worldly power and return to Christ who is Lord of Lords and even the Lord of his imperial majesty, the Pope of Rome. I personally know uniates who agree with me. You mentioned the "Orthodox cooperating with the communists." Three churches out of 7 or 8? And many European Catholic churches cooperated with the Fascists. Like you said, we are all "crap." (Your expression not mine.) Perhaps that is true, but in the last century, you Romans had to pinch your nostrils a bit tighter than the Orhodox. I hope we can continue this good natured banter. My great desire would be to be a participant in an Eastern Catholic/Orthodox prayer and/or meditation conducted online by one of your monks or priests. Ultimately, prayer must bring us together or nothing will. Peace.

[This message has been edited by Mar Thoma (edited 04-27-2000).]

WOW! Ecclesiatical insults thinly veiled in personal humility! Whatever happened to love not keeing a record of wrongs???

And since when, MT, did the Portugese get equated with the Roman-rite? Stalin was an Orthodox seminarian. Do I blame Saint Vladimir's in New York for his carnage of millions of people?

Yes - ecclesiastical imperialism is an evil that (thankfully) is being wiped out in many places. I am reminded about the words of Jesus to the apostles warning them not to assimilate the ways of the world in shepherding the Church. It is a shame that too often in our histories, our shepherds and people have subjugated the cause of the Gospel to their own national interests. Perhaps as the Church becomes more and more the Church of the poor and the martyrs, we will, after the example of the poor and crucified Christ, set aside all struggle for worldly glory and seek only the infinite power of love in our lives.

So if you are QUITE done pointing out the various sticks in our eyes and the eyes of our ancestors (spiritual or otherwise), I agree with your assertion re: the importance of prayer to help us to move closer to Christ, and thus to each other. I wonder if there is a priest or monk in this forum that would be willing to take on your suggestion.

Peace my brother! I wish you a blessed Feast of the Resurrection!

Gordo, sfo

WOW! Ecclesiastical insults thinly veiled in personal humility! Whatever happened to love not keeing a record of wrongs???

And since when, MT, did the Portugese get equated with the Roman-rite? Stalin was an Orthodox seminarian. Do I blame Saint Vladimir's in New York for his carnage of millions of people?

Yes - ecclesiastical imperialism is an evil that (thankfully) is being wiped out in many places. I am reminded about the words of Jesus to the apostles warning them not to assimilate the ways of the world in shepherding the Church. It is a shame that too often in our histories, our shepherds and people have subjugated the cause of the Gospel to their own national interests. Perhaps as the Church becomes more and more the Church of the poor and the martyrs, we will, after the example of the poor and crucified Christ, set aside all struggle for worldly glory and seek only the infinite power of love in our lives.

So if you are QUITE done pointing out the various sticks in our eyes and the eyes of our ancestors (spiritual or otherwise), I agree with your assertion re: the importance of prayer to help us to move closer to Christ, and thus to each other. I wonder if there is a priest or monk in this forum that would be willing to take on your suggestion.

Peace my brother! I wish you a blessed Feast of the Resurrection!

Gordo, sfo

[This message has been edited by Dozier (edited 04-28-2000).]

Dozier: Christ is Risen! Touche in the Theotokos-Mother of God and mother of all sinners, of whom I am chief. Perhaps the question for Catholics and Orthodox to ask of ourselves is: Why are members of our churches, clerics and lay, so often associated in history with acts of extreme violence and oppression and why are the members of the Friends(Quaker), Mennonite, Brethren, and similar churches, not!?!? Fair question? Why did St.Bernard(?) preach in favor of a crusade and St.Francis, by his deeds, "preach" against a crusade? Another fair question? I am willing and.... really able!... to put the fighting and ecclesiastical politics behind and move on to the higher gifts and graces of the Lord. The Lord demands us to be good stewards of the time He has gifted us with and I want to make sure whatever time I spend in this Forum is constructively well-spent. O Panaghia-Theotokos: Pure in heart, when once they duly look upon Thee, surely then their complete success is certain---O, Thou fruitful to behold! True Peace between those who are merciful, I am your new friend!

Dozier writes:

And since when, MT, did the Portugese get equated with the Roman-rite? Stalin was an Orthodox
seminarian. Do I blame Saint Vladimir's in New York for his carnage of millions of people?

Reply: Stalin was both an ex Orthodox and an ex seminarian. He was both kicked out of the seminary and excommunicated by the Orthodox Church.

Dozier writes:

And since when, MT, did the Portugese get equated with the Roman-rite? Stalin was an Orthodox
seminarian. Do I blame Saint Vladimir's in New York for his carnage of millions of people?

Reply: Stalin was both an ex Orthodox and an ex seminarian. He was both kicked out of the seminary and excommunicated by the Orthodox Church.

"It is certainly a finer and more wonderful thing to change the mind of enemies to another way of thinking than to kill them...The mystery of the Eucharist requires that we should be innocent not only of violence but of all enmity, however slight, for it is the mystery of peace." St.John Chrysostom [URL=http://www.Kosovo.com

[This message has been edited by Mar Thoma (edited 04-28-2000).]

Robert,

Thank you for explaining Stalin's status as regards the Orthodox Church. (Hitler was an ex-Catholic.) I did not intend in any way to infer any guilt on the part of the Orthodox by association. In fact, my intention was to demonstrate the opposite!

Mar Thoma,

I agree with what you have written. As a lay Franciscan - and a somewhat clandestine member of Orthodox Peace Fellowship - such a study would be extremely worthwhile. In fact, I recently purchased a very worthwhile text entitled "For the Peace from Above: An Orthodox Resource Book on War, Peace, and Nationalism". It is published by SYNDESMOS, and edited by Hildo Bos and Jim Forest, whom I met this past year. It is a great resource for studying the underlying theology of peace. (If anyone is interested in acquiring a copy, one can be obtained through the SVS Theological Bookstore.)

In the States, it's unfortunate that many religious and political "conservatives" see the peace movement as some "liberal sham". Of course, many within this movement have seemed to go out of their way to earn such a label, given, for instance, their more than tacit approval of the practice of abortion. Can you imagine! They cry "Peace! Peace!" and there is no peace...at least not for the unborn who are tragically and brutally torn from their mother's womb.

OPF is a notable exception of a fully pro-life peace organization, as well as some other Catholic organizations.

But if "shalom" is not to be found among Christians who are called to be the bearers and instruments of peace and communion, how can we chastise the nations as they "rage" against each other and their citizens?

Peace is fundamentally the teaching of the Gospel...I would even go so far as to say that it is the entire teaching of the Gospel! But not, of course, peace as the world gives. It goes beyond merely the cessation of external conflict, and embraces the recapitulation of the whole cosmos in the One true God (ala Saint Irenaeus).

May we seek to be true instruments of His peace!

Pax,

Gordo, sfo

[This message has been edited by Dozier (edited 04-29-2000).]

Remembrance of wrongs is the consummation of anger, keeper of sin, hatred of righteousness, ruin of virtues, poison of the soul, worm of the mind, shame of prayer...You will know that you have completely freed yourself of this rot, not when you pray for the person who has offended you, not when you exchange presents with him, not when you invite him to your table, but only when, on hearing that he has fallen into bodily or spiritual misfortune, you suffer and weep for him as for yourself.-St. John Climacus,The Ladder of Divine Ascent. Thanks on the book tip. On abortion and the Christian "left": I would be considered a Jim Wallis-Dorothy Day-Father Merton "lefty". But any Christian who preaches peace between nations and at the same time preaches violence-the most horrible violence imaginable- between mother and child suffers from diabolical moral dissonance:"Evil is good and good is evil." The Catholic Church holds the high-moral ground on this issue, especially the Holy Father in Rome. The rest of us have barely entered the fray. If the Orthodox do not engage themselves in the work of being serious peacemakers for Christ and protectors of the unborn then I just might do the unthinkable and become a Catholic and a "uniate" at that!(Just kidding.) "Christ has died, Christ is risen,Christ shall come again!" Orthodox Peace Fellowship: www.incommunion.org. [incommunion.org.] My "lefty" blessing:"Toil and peaceful life."

[This message has been edited by Mar Thoma (edited 04-29-2000).]

Mar Thoma,

For me, I have always found that the most difficult commandment of Christ was "love your enemies." Our passions often keep us from maintaining the supernatural perspective which is required for such an act. We are thinking only about how we feel about being wronged or knowing that others that we love have been wronged.

I should mention that I am a child of the Rambo-Schwarzenegger generation. I grew up witnessing violent resolution to problems on the screen. (Movies have become the contemporary blood-drenched "circuses" of the masses. I shop at Paneras for my bread! ) It's only been in recent years that I have begun to reflect more and more on Psalm 11:5 "The Lord tests the righteous, but the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates." Of course, the great irony of that Psalm is that it was written by King David...who had killed his tens-of-thousands! He must have done it with no love for violence in his heart...(no sarcasm there.) My point is that I've weaned myself from violent movies - at least movies with senseless graphic violence.

I know quite a bit about Father Thomas Merton (I had my High School conversion at the Abbey of Gethsemani where he had lived...and my father is a big Merton fan...). I'm learning more about the Servant of God, Dorothy Day, whose cause for canonization was just approved in Rome!

Who is Jim Wallis?

Since the Holy Father published his encyclical letter, "The Gospel of Life", I have also become a convert to the anti-death penalty position. Unilateral disarmament is still a question in my mind, especially due to the growing proliferation of these weapons to very hostile nations. The threat of MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) may be the only deterrance. That and an effective SDI (Strattegic Defense Initiative), aka "Star Wars" or another anti-ballistic system.

So I guess I'm "liberal" on some things and "conservative" on others!

Peace,

Gordo, sfo

Mar Thoma,

For me, I have always found that the most difficult commandment of Christ was "love your enemies." Our passions often keep us from maintaining the supernatural perspective which is required for such an act. We are thinking only about how we feel about being wronged or knowing that others that we love have been wronged.

I should mention that I am a child of the Rambo-Schwarzenegger generation. I grew up witnessing violent resolution to problems on the screen. (Movies have become the contemporary blood-drenched "circuses" of the masses. I shop at Paneras for my bread! ) It's only been in recent years that I have begun to reflect more and more on Psalm 11:5 "The Lord tests the righteous, but the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates." Of course, the great irony of that Psalm is that it was written by King David...who had killed his tens-of-thousands! He must have done it with no love for violence in his heart...(no sarcasm there.) My point is that I've weaned myself from violent movies - at least movies with senseless graphic violence.

I know quite a bit about Father Thomas Merton (I had my High School conversion at the Abbey of Gethsemani where he had lived...and my father is a big Merton fan...). I'm learning more about the Servant of God, Dorothy Day, whose cause for canonization was just approved in Rome!

Who is Jim Wallis?

Since the Holy Father published his encyclical letter, "The Gospel of Life", I have also become a convert to the anti-death penalty position. Unilateral disarmament is still a question in my mind, especially due to the proliferation of these weapons in very hostile nations. The threat of MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) may be the only deterrance. That and an effective SDI (Strattegic Defense Initiative), aka "Star Wars" or another anti-ballistic system.

So I guess I'm "liberal" on some things and "conservative" on others!

Peace,

Gordo, sfo

[This message has been edited by Dozier (edited 04-29-2000).]

Jim Wallis is an evangelical Peacenik-Freak for Jesus who drives evangelicals to the point of falling into a post-Reformation coma by saying hyper-Catholic/Orthodox things such as:"In the new millenium, faith will be known by action. We need to break through the individualistic and privatized approach to spirituality and reconnect with real community."-Faith Works:Lessons from the Life of an Activist Preacher. He is an expert on disarmament and the Gospel solution to poverty, especially in the inner city. I first learned of him when I was a volunteer with Lutherans hands-on engaged with the first attempts at ministering to HIV/AIDS sufferers. His essays helped reinforce our faith and we needed "lots" of reinforcement under those circumstances. He is definitely my kind of Flower Child cum Jesus Freak/Peacenik that I resonate so well with. Edits a wonderful magazine:www.sojourners.com. I'm off
to church. Christ is Risen!.

Laudetur Jesus Christus!
I know a little bit of history and I am aware ofmany very dark pages of western Church's past. But costant assaults of non-catholics on this forum make me slowly tired.
Especially since they are often closely kin to the political corectnees mentality.
So crusades were heinous crime but was four centuries earlier muslim invasion of the very same countries, then entirely christian, OK? And Mr Sweiss should remember that first crusade started as an answer to the request for help against muslim from byzantine emperor Alexy I.(Nicea, city of two ecumenical councils, was already under muslim rule).
Dear Soulsearcher,
In one of your post you wrote about church-led pogroms in Poland; would you like, please, specify concrete examples? Do you know that Poland was the only one country in Europe under nazi-german occupation, where helping the Jews was punished with immediate death penalty?
In Christ.
piotr c

Dear pio5tr c,
Christ is Risen! Indeed He is Risen!

What I have stated on this and other forums are not assaults but committed crimes by the Roman Catholic Church. Since you are "aware of many dark pages of western Church's past" that means a great deal of history. The First Crusade ended up being a big disaster and I would have to say no thanks to anyones help. The status quo under Muslim rule was much better or tolerant than that of the West. We know what happened when the Latins established their Kingdom in the Middle East and I am grateful for Salah Al-Deen, a Muslim, for ridding it. This forum began to proceed to extract an apology from the Orthodox Church for which I say there is none because She was not diabolical as Rome was. The Orthodox Church never accepted Rome concept of "Just War" because of our Holy Tradition forbade it. Our deaths and martyrdom only reinforced the Truth about who we were. You are only digging a grave for yourselves if you think that the Orthodox Church will apologize for something that She has not committed. If anyone should apologize it is the Uniate Church for breaking with Orthodoxy. This is the most wicked historical crime and abandonment from the Orthodox Church. It's like a bunch of children turning against the truths of their Mother. These children think they know better than their own Mother by breaking the relationship. They find a step-Mother(Rome) while their real Mother is still alive. This is the greatest lie and crime ever perpetrated against the Orthodox Church. You uniates are lost by claiming to have the best of both worlds when one of your worlds is distorted in essence. I take no pride in viewing this pseudo-union and attachment to false teachings. Again, this is not a matter of two Traditions because there is only one Tradition. You defenders of Rome continue to live in error by defending error. I only pray for your return to the Orthodox Church. Don't believe for one second that being in union with Rome will eventually cause change in Rome. The fact is you have opened yourselves up falsities and somehow you have to develop a consistent view of this union to prevent a person such as myself from knocking it. Let me remind you again that uniatism was and is a false creation to subdue the Orthodox Church. To subdue the Orthodox Church would mean that the Pope is the Head of the Universal Church. God forbid! The only Head of the Church is Christ Jesus. Remember that.