Dear friends,

Why is the guy in the white vestments on the right wearing Byzantine priestly vestments with a Roman mitre? I hope he's Armenian, not mixing rites! Does anyone if he is biritual or something?

http://www.grkatpo.sk/fotoalbumy/grafika/18_6.jpg

Confused,

anastasios

He's not an Armenian; if I have this right, Armenian vestments more closely resemble Syrian vestments rather than Greek. And the mitre is not an Armenian mitre, but the Latin simplex mitre (I think that's what it's called).

Maybe this guy is one of you guys...a "mitred" archpriest perhaps? :p

Slava Isusu Hristu!

Dobry vecer!

Pan Anastasios,

Byvalsom v Slovenska Republika....

My guess: it's an RC bishop who concelebrated a liturgy. The picture comes from the Presov Eparchy's website. I could not locate the picture from the link you provided. However, there were a bunch of photos of the recent installation of Bishop Babjaka.

One photo showed the ceremonies inside St. Peter's in Rome. By the altar were a number of Eastern celebrants and crowns, and two in Eastern vestments but with white mitres.

Perhaps someone on the list can identify the Roman Catholic bishop with Byzantine vestments? Is he the Latin Bishop of the Presov region?

God bless,
Christopher
Armenian Catholic

Slava Isusu Hristu!

Here's the photo I mentioned:

http://www.grkatpo.sk/fotoalbumy/grafika/13_17.jpg

My apologies for the error: I meant "a RC bishop", not "an." Ugh. It's too late.

God bless everyone.
Christopher

See also, from the enthronement:
http://www.grkatpo.sk/fotoalbumy/grafika/19_17.jpg behind Bishop Milan and
http://www.grkatpo.sk/fotoalbumy/grafika/19_11.jpg

His name is J�n Babjak. J�na Babjaka is the genitive. So, "Biskupsk� konsekr�cia Mons. J�na Babjaka" is "the episcopal consecration of Msgr. J�n Babjak." The use of the genitive supplies the "of."

Those are western chasubles not Byzantine phelonia.

Could they possibly be Roman bishops who forgot to bring their own vestments (but brought a mitre)?

Generally in the norms any deacon, priest or bishop should wear the vestments of his own church sui iuris, even when present at a service in another church sui iuris.

Hello:

An interesting thing is that clergymen in the second set of photos are wearing mitres that are not completely white.

Since it is clear that they are not the main celebrants, it would be at least a breech of ettiquete if they are Roman prelates.

Several alternatives come to mind:

They might be mitred abbots or monsigniori (roughly equivalent to mittred archimandrites and mittred archpriests).

They might also be Maronite prelates.

My pastor, Fr. William Leser, is a Maronite Chorbishop AND a Mittred Monsignior. I have never seen him wearing Marnonite liturgical vestments, I have seen him waeing Maronite "choir" vestments.

The Sunday before last one, we had the re-dedication ceremony of our renovated parish church. The main celebrant was, of course, our Metropolitan Archbishop H.E. Roger Cardinal Mahony.

Solemnly concelebrating with Cardinal Mahony were H.G. John George Chedid, Maronite Eparch Emeritus of Los Angeles and Rt. Rev. Francis Benedict, O.S.B, Abbot of the Benedictine Monastery of St. Andrew in Valyermo.

Among other concelebrating priests there were several Latin priests and two Maronite priests, one of them our Associate Pastor, Fr. Pierre Albalaa.

Now, returning to our point of interest, the "stole" that both clergymen are wearing is virtually identical to that worn by the three Maronite clergymen I saw at our rededication, including that of Eparch Emeritus John.

The mitre of Eparch John was not plain, and his outermost garment was something that looks like a Latin cape, and my understanding is that this garment is the regular garment for celebrating the Eucharist for a Maronite Bishop (the equivalent of the Latin chasuble). Very similar to the garment shown in the photos.

What do you think?

Shalom,
Memo.

Dear Memo,

I think that it is all rather confusing!

But which bishops "stole" the show, do you think?

Alex

Good afternoon!

Here is one photo [stgeorgesa.org] of a Maronite bishop vested.
(from St. George Maronite Catholic Church in San Antonio, TX [stgeorgesa.org]
What the Maronites wear is more akin to the Roman "cope." The cut is differently from the phelonion and it is open over the breat.

This web page [stmaron.org] has a good frontal view of a vested Maronite bishop.

Tony

Brothers:

This is one of the most interesting sets of photos I've ever seen.

Certainly Byzantine vestments; certainly Latin mitres. Who are they?

Maronite vestments are cut a little differntly and can be seen if you go to the Sister Churches area and move around in the Maronite area. A priest can be seen with stole alone behind a fully vested bishop.

http://www.stmaron.org
http://www.eparchyla.org/index-eparchy.html [eparchyla.org]

The Maronite site did have a picture of their Patriarch but it is now gone. That made comparison of Maronite and Syriac Patriarchs possible just a month ago.

Also there is a website showing the Syrian Orthodox Church--Syriac Church and its distinctive vestments. I have bookmarked it because it is in full color and even provides some of the vesting prayers. I'll see if I can find and bring back the info.

http://sor.cua.edu/Vestments

BOB

Also a website for the Coptic Orthodox Church with photos of their recent installation of a new bishop.

http://www.lacopts.org

If my memory is still working, Jozef Cardinal Tomko, then-prefect of the Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples, wore Byzantine vestments with a Latin mitre when he was the chief consecrator of Bishop Jan Hirka in Presov in 1990.

About the pic posted by Tony about the Maronite Bishop celebrating the Liturgy, I don't know if I exagerate but I feel kind of sad I doubt there's a "bema" there, the (latin-like) crucifix is totally on the other side of the Church as if this was a modern Roman Church building, and it looks that the Bishoph and his priests celebrate facing the congragation. I find difficult to differenciate this pic from any picture of a modern Roman Mass.

Dutin,

The picture is quite odd and I don't now what to make of it. In any case it is against the canons. If a cleric concelebrates in a different Church he is to retain his own vesture. So whether the man is a Latin bishop or a Byzantine archpriest he is vested incorrectly. If a Latin bishop he has no business wearing Byzantine vestments, if he is a Byzantine archpriest he has no business wearing a Roman mitre. I would guess the former, because last fall the protosyncellus/mitred archpriest of the Eparchy of Presov celebrated at my parish and he wore a Byzantine mitre.

In Christ,
Lance

Bishop Joseph Adamec of Altoona-Johnstown (PA, USA)had a picture in our diocesan paper some years ago showing him in this same pattern when he and another Latin bishop concelebrated with a Slovak bishop in Canada.

BOB

Dear Friends,

In fact, in the hey-day of Latinization, Ukrainian bishops frequently added Latin episcopal vesture to Byzantine vesture.

I especially deplored when the bishops wore the "beanie" cap (I forget its name) under their mitres.

Alex

Hi Alex

It's called a ZUCCETTO (sp)...

My parish priest has one worn by Pope Pius XII in a shadow box on the wall of dining room in the rectory.

I've also emailed the photo in question to a friend in Presov who is a Roman priest and asked to identify the Bishops in the foto. I will advise as soon as I get an answer.

mark

Alex, most of the older Ruthenian bishops of the Eparchies of Prjashev, Mukachevo, Krizevci, Hajdudorog have always wore "the beanies",
and the entire Latin choir dress instead of raissa and kobluk and veil.

Ung-Certez

Dear Friends,

Zuchetto, that's right!

And the Zuchetto by Pius XII comes from the tradition of presenting His Holiness with a new one and he takes it and gives you the one he is wearing. I'll do that when I see the Pope during my planned visit to Rome. You know, when in Rome . . .

I don't know what the tradition behind that is. In any event, the more important question is why are there Eastern Catholic bishops who feel it is important for them to wear it? I once met such a one and I was sorely tempted to remove his zuchetto and defenestrate it . . .

Alex

Hello:

Sadly, His Eminence didn't share any air time with his "concelebrants". Not even for the Eucharistic Prayers as prescribed by the Missal. That is why I used quotes.

When Fr. Bill had some time to thank the visiting prelates he did the oposite, something in the line of "well, you all know the guy in the middle", and then proceeded to introduce the other two concelebrants and to explain why were they there.

Eparch John is an old friend of his, and used to be his "legal" Bishop (after all, Fr. Bill IS a Maronite with bi-ritual faculties to celebrate in the Roman Church. Why is he pastor of a Roman parish escapes my understanding).

Abott Francis is Fr. Bill's spiritual director. St. Andrew's monastery and our parish have very good relations, of course.

St. Andrew's has the problem every monastery would like to have. It is overpopulated. They are currently conducting an agressive fund-rising campaign to expand their facilities, because if they do not, they will have to start declining observer candidates' applications.

Shalom,
Memo.

Dear Memo,

It is like my friend who has a jewelry store that had boxes all over the floor.

When he said, "Sorry for the mess," I replied, "Everyone should have the problem of a messy jewelry store!"

Alex

GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST!
GLORY TO HIM FOREVER!

Well, got an answer of sorts from Presov.

The Bishop in the photo is Bishop RABEK, newly appointed Bishop of the Military for Slovakia. He's the former Bishop of Nitra and former assistant to Cardinal Korec.

He is reportedly a bi-ritual priest, but can't confirm this.

Still checking....

mark

It is also known by the Latin name as "peccatoribus" (sp), which I prefer.

It began in monasteries in the Middle Ages to keep warm the heads of tonsured monks and priests, and caught on with secular clergy as well as the hierarchy.

Ordinary Roman parish priests are allowed to wear the peccatoribus, but not during the Sacrifice of the Mass. Priests wear black, bishops purple, cardinals red, and the Pope white.

ChristTeen287

Probably the pictures shows a Latin bishop taking part in a Byzantine Holy Liturgy (the main celebrant is wearing a Byzantine mitre)with other Latin bishops who did not take his Latin vestments with him but just the mitre. Probably he expected to find Latin vestment in that Church but probably they had only Byzantine vestments to offer him...Who knows?