www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Our Lady of Pochaev in PA!

Dear RichC,

Actually, your point about "Uniates" being worse than RC's is exactly the point Orthodox polemicists always make.

For example, in the Orthodox "Rudder," this is the point that is made about Eastern Catholics there in the footnotes etc.

You are right on! (Why don't I feel good about that?)

And your point about the consent of the people, that is true.

However, no one originally asked the people's consent when Kyivan Rus' was baptized into Orthodox Christianity.

The upper echelons of society then hardly ever asked the consent of the lower echelons concerning anything.

The Union of Brest-Litovsk was notable in this respect in that the bishops didn't consult with their Princes, such as Constantine Ostrozhky and others.

This, rather than the idea of union with Rome, is what set them off against the bishops and "their" Roman union.

St Athanasius of Brest, martyred by the Catholics for opposing the union, was actually against not the union itself, but against the use of force in imposing it on the populace (as is evident from his diary and his speech in the Polish parliament at which he distributed to everyone, Protestant and Catholic alike, copies of a Miraculous Icon of the Mother of God "Kupyatitska").

Further evidence of this is found in the fact that Ukrainian Catholics originally venerated St Athanasius as a national saint and hero who opposed their enemies.

It was much later that his cult was rooted out of the Ukrainian Catholic practice.

The Union was "False" and "True" depending on who looks at it and from what angle.

That it was considered "False" from the Orthodox theological angle was something that came about much later.

The idea of union with Rome was bantered about by the Orthodox Princes as well as the bishops of the time in response to the control exerted over them not by Poland, but by Constantinople and the Greeks, again this is well documented in Met. Ilarion's books (but you have to read Ukrainian!).

It became a "False" thing politically when it divided the country and caused problems, including the Latinization and denationalization of the Ukrainian aristocracy.

It became "True" in the 20th century as an instrument of increased Ukrainian identification and nationalism. "True" in other ways too, including what Basil Lypkivsky on the Orthodox side said was "a phenomenon that was justifiable in its times."

Orthodox today tend to do a knee-jerk reaction, in general, against the Unia, but not all.

I was myself told by a Patriarchal Russian Orthodox priest to be "more open-minded" about the Unia as God allowed it and it will serve His purposes in ways he and other Orthodox may not see.

Again, one can't blame the Orthodox for accusing the Unia of being "false" especially since it is a kind of historical and living testimony on our part of the "insufficiency" of Orthodoxy, that it is in "schism" etc.

I personally would never use "False" to describe anyone's religious identity or Church etc.

And that's because I'm a nice guy . . .

Alex

Why does everbody always blame the Basilians for all the probelms in the Greek Catholic Church? This order has been since its creation, full of devout men who have sacrificed much in order to advance the cause of the Byzantine Church in communion with Rome. All the sufferings and hardships that they endored for the salvation and protection of their flocks and all anybody can do is lay on heaps of critisicm about "Latinizations" on them.

Why if it wasnt for the Basilians Id wonder what the Greek Catholic Church would be like today? It probably wouldnt even exist!

On a secondary note, has anyone ever been to the Basilian monastery in Matawan, New Jersey? If so, how is it? I have been trying to get some info from them, especially pictures of the monastery and shrine. But unfortunatly they have no web page.

Robert K.

Christ is Risen!

The thoughts on the Unia (and the history of the Basilian community) are very interesting, but I fear that those questions have deviated from the announced topic in the title. Perhaps they should have threads of their own?

I for one, would like to know more about the icon of the Mother of God of Pochaev? Does anyone know the history of this icon?

Elias

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
[QB]Dear UC,

Not only was the Pochayiv monastery Basilian (the time period in which it got all those Baroque accoutrements), but the Icon was actually crowned with a papal crown amidst throngs of Latin and Greek Catholic clergy and bishops!

Alex,
Christ is Risen!
Many months ago,I was going through some very old issues of Eastern Churches Quarterly and came across an article on Metropolitan Sheptitsky and the Ukrainian Catholic Church. In a footnote to that article, it stated that the original icon of Our Lady of Pochayiv was taken by the Basilians when they had to leave the monastery and a copy was put in its place. I found this surprising!
Have you ever heard about this before? Is it credible?

God bless you,
griego

[I for one, would like to know more about the icon of the Mother of God of Pochaev? Does anyone know the history of this icon?

Elias]

Information on the Pochaev Icon of the Birthgiver of God is available on
the Orthodox Church in America website, at the following URLs:

http://www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Feasts-and-Saints/July/Jul-23.html
http://www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Feasts-and-Saints/September/Sep-08.html#p
ochaev

Christos Voskryesye

Dear friends,

An excellent booklet on the Pochaev Icon is "The Miraculous Icon of Pocaev" by John Bird. It is availible from Veritas Press in Ireland. The 101 Foundation may still have some copies.

I developed a devotion to the Bogoroditza Pochayevskaya after I purchased a beautiful Pochaev medal at the local Ukrainian Art Center a few years ago. It is attached to my "Chotki Bogoroditzu" which I always carry.

I also have a lovely holy card of St. Josaphat. He is floating over Pochaev Monastery. I believe this card is still sold by Basilian Press in Toronto. Hieromartyr Nikolaj Carneckji also had a devotion to the Virgin of Pochaev. He visited the lavra in 1927 or 1928, on an early trip through Volhynia. There is a brief account of this visit in the life by Stephen Bachtalowsky.

Hieromartyr Nikolaj (1884-1959) was moved by the great faith of the Ukrainian people. They came in great numbers to the monastery to lay their petitions before the Mother of God. The Russian monks made little provision for them. They preached only in Russian. Only two priests were hearing confession. The Russians were a minority in Volhynia.

Presviataya Bogoroditza Fatimskaya, spasi nas.
Presviataya Bogoroditza Pochayevskaya, spasi nas.
RusOrthCath martyrs and confessors, pray for us.

[ 04-16-2002: Message edited by: PaulOrthCathConfessor ]

[ 04-16-2002: Message edited by: PaulOrthCathConfessor ]

Christos Voskryesye!

Two more Russian martyrs were devoted to the Virgin of Pochaev. One was the Russian Catholic Old Believer priest monk Hieromartyr Potapij Emel'janov (1884-1936) and the Orthodox Carpatho-Rusyn priest monk Hieromartyr Maksym Sandovych (1886-1914.)

Presviataya Bogoroditza Fatimskaya, spasi nas.
RusOrthCath martyrs and confessors, pray for us.

Dear Griego,

Yes, the theory that the Basilian Fathers took the Pochayiv Icon was once circulated, but has proven false. The original is still at the Pochayiv Monastery in Ukraine.

In fact, there is another miraculous Icon of Pochayiv there, an icon that depicts the Mother of God over the rock on which Her Footprint was imprinted.

This miraculous icon was sent to the Lavra from Kyiv in 1859 following an answer to the Kyivans' prayer to stop a cholera epidemic there.

One problem, as with other Shrines, is that Pochayiv is claimed by both Catholics and Orthodox, although it is certainly an Orthodox Shrine, and of this there can be no doubt.

But the official position of the Ukrainian Catholic Church today is to recognize it as an Orthodox Shrine and to say that Catholics share in the great veneration to it.

The three main Shrines of the Lavra are: The miraculous Icon, the Footprint of Our Lady from which holy Water flows and the relics of St Job of Pochayiv.

The Footprint is held in great devotion and the special Communion Loaves used there are stamped with the image of Our Lady's Footprint.

To venerate the Footprint, as is mentioned in the Way of the Pilgrim, is to ask Our Lady to guide our own footsteps in the path toward God.

As the OCA pages Orthoman has listed state, a monk and a shepherd by the name of Ivan Bossiy, saw the Mother of God in the midst of a flaming aureole on the mountain of Pochayiv, with a Crown and a sceptre.

She said nothing and after the apparition disappeared they found Her footprint imbedded in the rock over which She appeared and water flowed from it.

This is, in fact, the "Lourdes" of the East.

Anna Hoyska received the icon from a Greek Patriarch and donated it to the developing monastery where pilgrimages began in earnest immediately following.

The Church of the Holy Trinity is no longer there, but was built through the charity of the Domashevsky family. The only representation we have of it, in fact, is in the family portrait of the Domashevsky.

My ancestor, Auguste Yablonowsky, was also devoted to the Shrine and donated generously to the Lavra. My wife, Tanya, is a descendant of the Orthodox Metropolitan of Kyiv, Dionysius Balaban, who glorified St Job a saint in 1654.

On the back wall of the Cathedral there are represented 21 miracles of the Pochayiv Mother of God, one of which involved the curing of a blind Polish Catholic woman who later became Orthodox in thanksgiving.

There is also a beautiful Icon of the Choir of the Saints of Volyn: Sts. Stephen and Amphilochius of Vladimir in Volyn, St Theodore prince of Ostrih, St Juliana Olshanska, St Job of Pochayiv, St Macarius of Kaniv, St Yaropolk prince of Vladimir in Volyn.

(As a side-note to Paul - St Josaphat was also a saint from Volyn, but Catholic.)

There is a special Akathist to Our Lady of Pochayiv and to St Job of Pochayiv that St John of Kronstadt press has available.

The miracle of the repelling of the cannon-balls at Pochayiv through the Mother of God and St Job is celebrated with special popular songs.

The people came out and began singing the Akathist to the Mother of God (Annunciation) and having read the first Kondak, the miracle and apparition occurred. As a result, this Kondak is said as a separate prayer by Orthodox Christians to this day.

Also, it should be noted that a number of the Turks who witnessed this miracle became Orthodox Christians and Monks at the Pochayiv Lavra.

As a sidenote to our Pro-Catholic friend, Robert K. - I'm not against the Basilians, Robert. I served in a Basilian Church for seven years as an altar boy.

The fact of their historic Latinization as a religious Order is simply that, something that applies to the Redemptorists and others. And I have Redemptorists in my family.

There are many among them who fight Latinization in their Order, such as Fr. Basil Zinko OSBM of Brazil who is very dedicated to the Byzantinization of the full Eastern Horologion, Fr.Julian Katriy, OSBM who has written so widely about the purity of Byzantine Church liturgical traditions and Fr. Meletius Soloviy, OSBM (+memory eternal!) who wrote so much about the same.

Metropolitan Ilarion Ohienko of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church attacked the historic latinizations of the Basilians at Pochayiv, their taking it over etc.

But he had nothing against the Basilians of this century insofar as their Ukrainian identity went, and indeed the Basilian Press at Zhovkva (where St Nicholas Zahorivsky, the Orthodox Hieroconfessor died) published a number of his literary works.

Again, I have never come across an Orthodox who was so defensive of the Ukrainian Catholic Church!

You are more papal than I, my friend. And I say that with the utmost of respect and fondness!

Alex

Depends on what "East" you mean. If you mean "East" as in Eastern Christianity, OK. If not, then I'm sorry, but this honour goes to the shrine of Our Lady of Good Health at Vailankanni, in India. It's been called such by, among other people, the Pope. :p

No hard feelings?

http://www.annaivailankanni.org/index.html

The Virgin looks awesome in a sari.

Dear Catholicos,

Yes, I venerate that miraculous Shrine as well, not just you .

I meant "East" in the Byzantine sense, and I am again hoisted on my own petard . . .good for you.

I was just trying to see if you were lurking out there . . .ooops I can feel my nose growing again!

And also our friends should remember that since Ukraine is now independent, the term is really "Pochayiv" rather than "Pochaev."

I say this to protect you against the anger of any of those nationalistic Ukrainians out there, you know . . .

Alex

For whatever its worth, I second Mor Ephrem here.

The "Shrine [elevated to a Basilica by Bl. Pope John XXIII in 1962] of Our Lady of Good Health" is, indeed, the "Lourdes of the East."

Filipino Catholics have been going on pilgrimage to the Shrine annually, especially this year when it was the focus of the Catholic Church's annual celebrations of the "World Day of the Sick" held on Feburay 11th.

BTW, Mor Ephrem, I noticed that the parish celebrates/offers the Holy Mass 6 times daily, Mondays thru Fridays, 7 times on Saturdays, and 8 times on Sundays! (I think, this partially answers your doubt as to whether daily Masses are being celebrated in India.) But considering that there are an estimated 20 million pilgrims to the Shrine annually, the number of Masses celebrated daily in this parish is understandable.

Dear Amado,

O.K., O.K. . . .

Pochayiv is the Lourdes of the Byzantine Church - how's that?

Does the Indian Shrine have a miraculous spring of water?

If not, then I really don't think it qualifies in the "Lourdes" category.

Alex

Dear Alex,

I'm not sure, but I think there is a spring of water at Vailankanni, but I'm open to correction in case I'm wrong.

Dear Amado,

Thanks for the support!

As for daily Masses in India, I was always sure that there are those places which celebrate them. Mother Teresa's convents, the Vatican Embassy, shrines and other places. My doubt, and what my mother intended when speaking to me, was with regard to the average, ordinary, Latin parish in India. Certainly the above categories aren't ordinary in any way. Therefore, the question continues, for me anyway.

Dear Professor:

Well, there was/is a water pond and a "tank of milk." There is a Chapel of Our Lady's Tank, aside from the Basilica, built within the Shrine grounds.

Which is more valuable: water or milk? I don't know. During the first apparition of our Lady, She asked,and was gladly given by, the little Indian boy milk for Her baby Son!

Involved here, therefore, is Holy Milk! (I just hope that the expression "Holy Cow!" is not a derivation!

Dear Phillip(single L or double?):

You are welcome!

With around 16 million Indian Catholics, mainly concentrated to the south, I am 99% sure there is at least a single Mass celebrated daily in all of the parishes. (Have you heard that, for the first time I think, an Eastern Catholic bishop in the person of Archbishop Cyril Mar Baselios of Trivandrum, primate of the 400,000 Syro-Malankara Church, was elected President of the Catholic Bishops Conference of India (CBCI) during its biennial meeting held last month?)

Dear Catholicos,

I'm just kidding . . .

This does point to an historical "rivalry" among Churches as to who had the greatest shrines, the most relics etc.

The icon of Pochayiv is beautiful, to be sure. The Mother of God holds the Christ-Child on her right arm and holds a cloth in her other hand.

Some have said she uses that cloth to wipe away the tears of those who come to ask favours of her.

The frame of the icon depicts Sts. Menas of Egypt, Abramius, Barbara and others.

The Pochayiv Icon, as well as the Icon of the Dormition of Kyiv, also represents a unique Slavic expression of devotion to the Mother of God.

The icon is held by two ropes above the Royal, main Doors of the iconostasis in Pochayiv.

After the Liturgy, the icon is lowered down to allow the people to come to kiss it and receive anointing etc.

I have never heard of any other Slavic Church follow this beautiful custom.

Pochayiv probably comes from the river "Pochayna" if this is correct.

It was the centre of a vibrant Orthodox liturgical and catechetical publishing enterprise, something that has been handed down to the St Job of Pochaev Printshop of Jordanville and in the Basilian publishing house of Svitlo.

It also has a great ecumenical significance as its pilgrims have always included Greek, Latin and Armenian Catholics, as well as, of course, Orthodox Christians of many different backgrounds.

I have an antique medal of Pochayiv with the Icon and Footprint on the front and St Job on the back.

Our Lady of Pochayiv is special to all Slavic Orthodox and Byzantine Catholics. So is your special Shrine, and no one is suggesting that one is more than the other.

This reminds me of a discussion a pair of English Catholics had that was repeated often in recusant literature to illustrate an unnecessary point:

"I love Our Lady of York, Sir!"

"And I Our Lady of Glastonbury, dear fellow!"

May the Most Holy Mother of God, glorified in all Her Shrines throughout the world, cover us with Her protective mantle!

Alex