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John,

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even just wars must be avoided.

Thanks. That is an very good point.

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Fr. David,

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My father is a United Methodist minister. In my youth (the late 1960's or early 1970's) I witnessed him 'baptise' two baby girls with earth, wind, fire, and water. For the last couple decades my father would never baptise anyone in the name of "the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit," but instead 'baptises' in the name of "the Creator, the Redeemer, and the Sustainer." By the way, the Baptismal Certificates he fills out and gives to the parents (which are printed by a Methodist publishing house) still say "This child, N., was Baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

I don't trust Protestant 'baptisms' for this reason. Check, double check, and baptise at least conditionally.

This is very scary indeed! I was baptized in the United Methodist church in the early 1970's, and when I was to be received into the Catholic Church in the early 1990's, they accepted the certificate from my old church that I was baptized in the Trinitarian formula. But it sounds like that is no guarantee.

I do know the minister who baptized me, and he is a pretty conservative minister, so I doubt anything flaky happened in my instance, but your story makes me think that conditional baptisms should be the norm when it comes to bringing in Protestants.


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Lance,

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I think that we Americans as a nation were to eager to go to war at the time; that our politicians were too cowardly in an election year to vote against the war, and that we were too much influenced by fear, after the awful events of 911, rather than by our faith in our God.

In retrospect, I agree with you. At the time, I also was afraid that there might be collusion between Hussein and Al-Qaeda (one acquires the arms, the other delivers them). Part of my fear was based on Hussein's $20,000 bonuses to the families of suicide bombers in Israel.

It did not help when France and Germany, who had billions of dollars of business with Iraq, made their "play" in the UN. They said they had seen the same evidence of WMD and that it was valid, but ???

Personally, I wonder if all this might have been avoided if the "UN" had parked in southern Iraq after March 1991, rather than fly away and pass resolutions -- I notice how Jim Baker now smiles and takes credit for not marching to Bahgdad then, but what if they had simply stayed where they were?

In Christ,
Michael



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Originally Posted by lanceg
Dear Alice,

I do not judge President Bush, or the state of his soul. I thought I was saying something gracious about the president, by expressing solidarity with him as a fellow sinner, in need of Christ.

But you ask, "did he really do anything that bad?"

An unjust, unecessary, pre-emptive war is a bad thing in my mind. Iraq had nothing to do with 911.

The pope and most of the Orthodox bishops in the world condemned the Iraq war. I think I am in good company in being against the war. The war was not just mistaken, it was wrong morally.



Blessings,

Lance

Dear Lance,

One of the problems of this forum program is that when someone posts after another, it looks as if they are somehow responding to that person's post even if they are not-- because the top of the posting box will say 'RE:xxx' (the person's name of the last post you read before posting).

When I am responding to someone in particular, I will generally 'reply with quote' as I have done here.

Actually, if you read page 1, I was responding to a general attitude that had been building up by the time you posted and not you specifically.

Take care....

In Christ,
Alice smile

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Originally Posted by Alice
Originally Posted by lanceg
Dear Alice,

I do not judge President Bush, or the state of his soul. I thought I was saying something gracious about the president, by expressing solidarity with him as a fellow sinner, in need of Christ.

But you ask, "did he really do anything that bad?"

An unjust, unecessary, pre-emptive war is a bad thing in my mind. Iraq had nothing to do with 911.

The pope and most of the Orthodox bishops in the world condemned the Iraq war. I think I am in good company in being against the war. The war was not just mistaken, it was wrong morally.



Blessings,

Lance

Dear Lance,

One of the problems of this forum program is that when someone posts after another, it looks as if they are somehow responding to that person's post even if they are not-- because the top of the posting box will say 'RE:xxx' (the person's name of the last post you read before posting).

When I am responding to someone in particular, I will generally 'reply with quote' as I have done here.

Actually, if you read page 1, I was responding to a general attitude that had been building up by the time you posted and not you specifically.

Take care....

In Christ,
Alice smile


Thanks Alice! smile

Last edited by lanceg; 06/18/08 07:35 PM.
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Fr. Straut,

While your fathers actions are deplorable (no offense), I would imagine that is a very, very rare occurence in the United Methodist Church.

Anyway, I am from a small, Southern town in west Georgia. I was certainly baptized in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, with water from the River Jordan, actually, and have been to dozens upon dozens of baptisms at my old church performed by various ministers and it has always been the exact same way.

Any other "baptism" of the sort you speak of would NEVER, ever fly in these parts, I can assure you of that. People would absolutely lose it. I highly doubt President Bush was baptized in the name of anything other than the Trinity, and since he is about 60 years old and was surely baptized as an infant, long before this fad, rare as it is, reared its ugly head, makes it even more doubtful that something went awry.

In my humble opinion.

Alexis

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I have always been against all forms of Imperialist agressions. However, I don't believe President Bush to be evil or fully responsable for these actions. The interests of world capitalism are behind all these wars, the governments of the world are just instruments of those who truly have the power.

Anyways, I also think that there must be another thread to discuss this.

Regarding the President's probable conversion, we all believe in One Baptism as long as it is a true baptism. In Mexico the Catholic Church does not recognize most Protestant baptisms as grace-giving, including that of the Methodists:

http://www.vicariadepastoral.org.mx/cardenal/directorio_sacramentos/apendice.htm

I was told that it was the common practice before Vatican II to baptize every convert from Protestantism, because it's imposible to assure that the Baptism was correct, and that the minister had an orthodox understanding of the Trinity.


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I doubt that there are many who despise President Bush more than I do. I believe that his moral failings are of a grave nature and that he has done a great disservice to our nation and to the world. In spite of all this, I would welcome his conversion to the Catholic faith.

I believe that whenever a Christian feels as harshly towards someone as some of us do towards President Bush, it is good to be confronted with a question once posed to one of my closest friends by the priest who was at that time his confessor. My friend was discussing the difficulties he was having with a coworker and the priest said to him, "Who are you to decide that she is not worthy of salvation?"

In spite of my feelings, it is not for me to pass judgment on President Bush, nor is it my place to oppose his reception into the Catholic Church, should that ever happen. Ultimately, President Bush is accountable to God--not to me. Furthermore, though my own sins are not the cause of public scandal because I am not a public figure, I will no more escape God's judgment than will President Bush--or anyone else. May God have mercy on President Bush and may the Holy Spirit guide him "into all truth." And may God have mercy on us all.

Ryan

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Originally Posted by Michael McD
Originally Posted by lanceg
Dear Alice,

I do not judge President Bush, or the state of his soul. I thought I was saying something gracious about the president, by expressing solidarity with him as a fellow sinner, in need of Christ.

But you ask, "did he really do anything that bad?"

An unjust, unecessary, pre-emptive war is a bad thing in my mind. Iraq had nothing to do with 911.

The pope and most of the Orthodox bishops in the world condemned the Iraq war. I think I am in good company in being against the war. The war was not just mistaken, it was wrong morally.



Blessings,

Lance

Dear Lance,

I don't want to "escalate" this business, but in defense of what Alice said, Pres. Bush, with the approval of the Senate, declared war on the regime of Hussein. Whether or not it was "unjust" or "unnecessary" remains a matter of opinion, now pretty much opinions benefitting from hindsight. Yes, the Pope and others were against it, but at the time I tried to find out if the Pope had truly "condemned" going to war against Hussein, because my brother told me he had. We looked and couldn't actually find anything specific. So I think Alice's contextualization is rather accurate.

In Christ,
Michael



Traditionally, the responsibility of declaring war falls to Congress according to the Constitution. This however has been cast aside after WWII when the president was given carte blanche as the commander of the armed forces. There has not been an official Constitutional declaration of war since WWII. Sorry for the tangent, I will get back on topic.

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Originally Posted by Logos - Alexis
Theologos,

Regardless of what we think of President Bush personally, shouldn't we celebrate when a person, no matter who he is, abandons heresy and adopts the True Faith?

We are ALL unworthy to call ourselves Catholics, and he would be no different. That doesn't mean he shouldn't convert.

Alexis


You are very right. I was making my statement tongue-in-cheek. I just hope that Bush would fully adopt the teachings of the Catholic faith and incorporate them into his life and his policy while in the public sector. I fear that it would not be a true metanoia on his part. If he did not change his conduct after becoming Catholic it would be one more flash-point for others to criticize our most Single, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

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Originally Posted by Administrator
First, let us pray that the Lord is leading President Bush towards full membership in the Catholic Church.

Second, a discussion about the justness or unjustness of the effort to liberate the Iraqi people is more appropriate to another thread. If one reads closely what the Holy Father, Pope John Paul the Great, stated (and not the biased account reported in most of the media) it amounts to an agreement that the conditions for the war were just but that even just wars must be avoided. One can support the effort in Iraq and remain in good standing with the Catholic Church just as one can oppose the effort in Iraq and be in good standing with the Catholic Church.

Thirdly, I highly recommend to all not to consider entertainment websites as legitimate sources of news. It is usually best to obtain information from all sources, both liberal and conservative, both domestic and international before forming conclusions (avoiding the sheer entertainment stuff). [Overall, Alice's summary above is quite accurate.]

Interesting, President Bush is hated viscerally by many on the political left. And so was President Reagan at the same point in his term. If the Iraqis do succeed in establishing a constitutional democracy (I give them a 50/50 chance at this point) then it is possible that history will judge President Bush as fondly as it now judges President Reagan.

I agree. However, if we as Americans are interested in making the world safe for democracy, should we not try to leap a higher hurdle? Should we not force China into a democracy? Or even North Korea? The crimes against humanity in these two Godless countries is probably more in need of our intervention. But is forcing people by the sword the way to make them change? Should we not rather pray for the Iraqi people instead of militarily intervening?

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Originally Posted by Amadeus
The Catholic Church believes in only ONE baptism. Any trinitarian baptism outside of the Catholic Church is accepted as valid.

caveat: The Trinity used must be Father, Son, and Spirit/Ghost. And it must be by water.

Oh, and isn't there another problem with sprinkling rather than pouring?

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God Bless President Bush!
I have long had an icon of the protecting veil of the Mother of God, hanging over His and Laura's picture.
Stephanos I
And have prayed for years for his conversion to the Catholic Faith.

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Originally Posted by Logos - Alexis
Fr. Straut,

While your fathers actions are deplorable (no offense), I would imagine that is a very, very rare occurence in the United Methodist Church.

Anyway, I am from a small, Southern town in west Georgia. I was certainly baptized in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, with water from the River Jordan, actually, and have been to dozens upon dozens of baptisms at my old church performed by various ministers and it has always been the exact same way.

Any other "baptism" of the sort you speak of would NEVER, ever fly in these parts, I can assure you of that. People would absolutely lose it. I highly doubt President Bush was baptized in the name of anything other than the Trinity, and since he is about 60 years old and was surely baptized as an infant, long before this fad, rare as it is, reared its ugly head, makes it even more doubtful that something went awry.

In my humble opinion.

Alexis
Dear Alexis,

Please call me Fr David. It is not proper in the Eastern Church to use the title "Father" with a surname.

I really have no doubt that either you or our President were christened with the proper words. You because admittedly the Methodist Church is quite a bit more conservative in the South and the President because of his age. But I assure you that Baptism in the name of "the Creator, and the Redeemer, and the Sustainer/Sanctifier" is not at all rare in the United Methodist Church. In the Northeast, the Left Coast, and the majority of the UMC's Theological Schools it is quite common.

But things may be deteriorating even in Dixie. I returned to the South for the funerals of my Grandfather, my Grandmother, and my Uncle, which were performed by my Father. He used 'inclusive' language exclusively in these funerals from Scripture Readings (making changes even to the NRSV), to the prayers, to the hymns. Nobody seemed to notice or bat an eyelash.

Say what you will about my Father's actions, but he is not a rare bird in his Denomination.

With warmest regards,

Fr David


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Originally Posted by Michael McD
Fr. David,

Interesting personal experience. And we have "Catholics" doing similar things unfortunately.

Re Pres. Bush, though, I think he was probably originally baptized by the Episcopal Church, since the Bushes are originally Episcopalians, I think, and I would guess that they probably used the traditional formula when he was young.

The point is the same, however, as you make clear: only certainty where the sacraments are concerned.

Michael

Michael,

Yes - there was a situation in Australia this past year where it was revealed that some priests at a parish were using the modalistic "Creator, Redeemer, Sanctifier" nonsense. There were instructed to "re" baptize everyone using the proper Names of the HOly trinity according to Tradition and official Church teaching.

Why in the world such men remained priests and were not defrocked is beyond me. It is like a doctor amputating the wrong leg! Spiritual malpractice!

In ICXC,

Gordo

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