The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
jsunseri, Andrew_the_Ascetic, Giovanni1, SeekingTruth, friendly_pilgrim
5,863 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
2 members (2 invisible), 91 guests, and 20 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
by Veronica.H, April 24
Byzantine Catholic Outreach of Iowa
Exterior of Holy Angels Byzantine Catholic Parish
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Byzantine Nebraska
Byzantine Nebraska
by orthodoxsinner2, December 11
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics35,191
Posts415,118
Members5,863
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 5 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 379
B
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 379
Originally Posted by dochawk
I spoke with our bishop a couple of years ago at his visit to our parish.

He had imported a slovakian priest. Seems there is a seminary in Slovakia that produces more priests than it can place locally, and they're all married.


As a member of the parish in this story, I can say it is working out well for us. He has been embraced by the local Latin community. He has bi-ritual faculties and says Mass 3 mornings a week at a local parish. I have heard nothing beyond mild surprise at the fact that we have a married priest.


We are a parish of 22 registered families, with 10-12 active families. We don't have housing for our priest and cannot afford it. Our complete annual budget for the parish is close to the $75,000 salary that Stuart suggested for a married priest. Father and his growing family lived with his in-laws for the first couple of years, and recently purchased their own house. In order to do this, Father works a full-time job in addition to his parish duties.

It has been a difficult few years for them and we are grateful the sacrifices that he and his family make in order to serve us. Hopefully, he'll be able to work part-time at his job in the near future, which will alleviate some of the stress for his family.

In spite of the difficulties, I hope that our experiences can serve as a model for how this can work in our churches.

Last edited by babochka; 01/06/13 08:37 AM.
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
Likes: 1
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
Likes: 1
You're right. Ten families would have to be contributing $144/wk to support a priest at $75,000. If all 22 registered families contributed, that number would fall to $65/wk, which is still too high. Suppose, though, the eparchy subsidized his salary $15,000--roughly the stipend of an unmarried priest. Then the parish would have to generate $60,000 on its own, which would be $115/wk for the ten active families, or $52/wk for all the active families. The latter is on the edge of doable, but would require real commitment from the people, who would probably have to pledge to contribute.

From this, it's clear that a very small parish--under fifty families--would have a very hard time supporting a married priest from its own resources. Such parishes would have to allow the priest to work at least part time and supplement his secular pay out of parish donation. Even then, it seems to me that fifty families is the lower level for a financially stable parish, whether the priest is married or celibate Below that threshold, income becomes too volatile: a single family where the primary breadwinner is laid off, or which suffers a medical emergency, or a house fire, or some other disaster, can reduce the already marginal parish income by 10% or more (since it is assumed that members of the parish will step up to help the family in need).

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 144
J
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 144
Christ is Baptized!
I think some of this discussion is also not factoring historical perspective-in reading histories of our eparchies you hear of first generation American Greek Catholics mortgaging homes to raise funds for a parish building.

My hope and prayer is that such a dedication to the parish life will grow so that more vocations will come about and that (more importantly) those vocations will be supported-be they of older men as described above, or recent college graduates.

It will be interesting to see if the increase of vocations awareness through diaconal programs and distance learning helps fulfill some of the scenarios described above, in addition to working with priests from the "Old Country".

In XC,
JAD


Last edited by j.a.deane; 01/06/13 01:07 PM.
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
Likes: 1
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
Likes: 1
The experiences of those first generation Greek Catholics might have something to do with the attitudes of their descendants.

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 450
D
Member
Offline
Member
D
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 450
Well, I don't know if Stuart's post was a caricature. I have seen a little bit of it myself. I work near St. John Cantius parish here in Chi-town, and have attended early morning mass a few times, which is the old tridentine rite. There are many of us young-ins (i'm 42 so i don't know if i still qualify as a young-in) and from what I know of some in the parish there, they do match what Stuart describes in some degree.
I don't think it's particularly wide-spread, but I do think there are some pockets of it. For whatever my opinion is worth, I do think that the internet has helped spread what Stuart describes about the negative attitudes about Vatican II and the so-called clown masses.

Last edited by danman916; 01/07/13 02:20 PM.
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
Likes: 1
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
Likes: 1
The people about whom I was writing are, in general, college age converts to Catholicism, usually either former atheists or Evangelicals. The latter in particular view the world from the Catholic-Protestant paradigm, and label any dissent or even differences of expression from what they consider "magisterial teachings" is immediately labeled "Protestantism". For them, for instance, the Orthodox are just an exotic breed of Protestant (in the same way that many Protestants view the Orthodox as exotic Catholics). Many are definitely converts FROM Protestantism, rather than converts TO Catholicism. Their knowledge of the faith is a mile wide and an inch deep; they are deeply versed in apologetics and polemics, but not so much in history. Their objective is to beat down "heresy" as they see it. Like many former Protestants who became Orthodox, they are extremely zealous, text-oriented, and tend to take what they read at face value. They proof-text a lot, but rather than Bible verses (other than Matthew 16:18) they prefer to sling snippets of bulls and encyclicals. When pushed, they can be extremely legalistic: magisterial documents with which they disagree are "dogmatic" or "authoritative" (but Denziger is, for some reason). Ecumenical they ain't. They know nothing of the ongoing official dialogue, dismiss any and all agreed statements, and view the end game in simple terms: schismatics and heretics must repent and return to the Church of Rome. They profess to like Eastern Catholics, or at least our "pretty Mass", but deny that the Eastern Churches can deviate in any way from Latin doctrinal formulations or forms of spirituality. Overall, I'd rather spend my days with Hyperdox Herman. At least we'd be speaking the same language.

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 144
J
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 144
Stuart (et al.),
Without analyzing/concluding about the reasons why the current generation is not as dedicated to helping parish life, we should look forward and ask what we can do to cultivate a vibrant and growing community where we are.

In XC,
JAD

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
Likes: 1
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
Likes: 1
Ask for leaders who think that the Church has a future, so that we stop getting bishops who behave like trustees of a firm going through bankruptcy liquidation.

Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 209
E
Member
Offline
Member
E
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 209
I am new here, so I will add my thoughts with the due newcomer to any conversation.

First, on the subject of 'scandal' that the Roman faithful might or might not experience, I think the differing judgments on the matter are likely all correct. Many (perhaps most) would not be scandalized, some doubtless would be. But, I must say that I honestly don't think that should matter. The question finally becomes whether Eastern churches are to be welcome within the Catholic communion to be themselves.

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 421
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 421
Filipe

The Married Presbyterate has been a staple of Orthodoxy from the beginning. The mainstream Orthodox do not ordinate women so the argument that it is liberals that want married priests is wrong. The Eastern Rite demands married presbyterate in order to be given their right to their own tradtions - something promised by Rome and put on display as the way to unification of Catholic and Orthodox. This issue alone will keep the Orthodox from union and communion as long as the latinization of Eastern Rite dominates the relationship.
How can Eastern Orthodoxy even consider union in the face of such blatant and offensive subjugation.

The Fact that ROME must dominate Eastern Catholicism and impose extreme control over the Eastern Rite - against what they promise (The Eastern Rite has a "right" to it's traditions - except in the USA and against married Priests) is disturbing.

I for one detest the extreme nature of Roman Hierarchical ecclisiology with regard to Celibacy of Priests and the imposition of their bad practices upon Eastern Catholicism.

In fact I would be in favor of returning to the "Rudder" of original canon law and allow Bishops the ability to be the husband of one wife.

Furthermore - I would gladly become clergy - and promise to BE PAID ZERO - NO BENEFITS - ALL FOR FREE - AND SERVE AS MANY LITURGIES AS A CHURCH NEEDED - AND WORK FULL TIME AND SUPPORT MY FAMILY AND PAY MY OWN BILLS INCLUDING HEALTH INSURANCE ETC. ALL AT THE SAME TIME!

It can be done - it's called hard work - and Paul the apostle did it.

Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 209
E
Member
Offline
Member
E
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 209
[quote=haydukovich]
I would gladly become clergy - and promise to BE PAID ZERO - NO BENEFITS - ALL FOR FREE - AND SERVE AS MANY LITURGIES AS A CHURCH NEEDED - AND WORK FULL TIME AND SUPPORT MY FAMILY AND PAY MY OWN BILLS INCLUDING HEALTH INSURANCE ETC. ALL AT THE SAME TIME!

It can be done - it's called hard work - and Paul the apostle did it. [/quote]

I do not mean to question your sincerity, haydukovich. But I think the churches cannot only rely on priests who be basically donating their ministry. I do agree that the Church should consider multiple arrangements to provide priests for the the faithful, including some mostly self-supported part time priests.

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,346
D
Jessup B.C. Deacon
Member
Offline
Jessup B.C. Deacon
Member
D
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,346
Originally Posted by StuartK
Ask for leaders who think that the Church has a future, so that we stop getting bishops who behave like trustees of a firm going through bankruptcy liquidation.

At least we should try Chapter 11 first! smile

Last edited by Deacon Robert Behrens; 02/21/13 01:19 AM.
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
Likes: 1
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
Likes: 1
A reorganization would not be a bad idea. We could start the consolidation by merging the Ruthenian and Ukrainian Churches back into a single entity. And we'd do better as a Metropolitan province of a Patriarchal Church.

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,346
D
Jessup B.C. Deacon
Member
Offline
Jessup B.C. Deacon
Member
D
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,346
Originally Posted by StuartK
A reorganization would not be a bad idea. We could start the consolidation by merging the Ruthenian and Ukrainian Churches back into a single entity. And we'd do better as a Metropolitan province of a Patriarchal Church.

Agree. Could be a headache, given all the "duplication" in Real Estate. Many times, where "we" are, so is the UGCC in terms of parish locations, esp. in the Northern & Eastern parts of the country.

Dn RJB


Last edited by Deacon Robert Behrens; 02/21/13 04:16 PM.
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 209
E
Member
Offline
Member
E
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 209
A wholescale merger of the two hierarchies in this country seems a much bigger undertaking than does re-establishing a married presbyterate in either church (or both).

Page 5 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6

Moderated by  Father Anthony 

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2022 (Forum 1998-2022). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5