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Then again, I don't attend coffee hours and such. So I really have no idea.

We had a big con-celebration at our church (Passaic, NJ) last year on the Sunday of Orthodoxy, a lot of clergy participated, I heard nothing but good things.

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Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Originally Posted by Diak
So what would our options be for reunification? Recent scenarions include having saints decanonized (ROCOR-MP reunion)
Who do you claim was "decanonized"?
and I believe it was answered here as well:
Originally Posted by griego catolico
This should not be viewed as unexpected since it was announced back in 2007 that ROC and ROCOR were going to be working on a common martyrology and it was said by ROC that ROCOR had made errors in its canonization of new martyrs.

Quote
21 June 2007, 14:52
The Moscow Patriarchate and the ROCOR to start composing common martyr list next month


Moscow, June 21, Interfax - The Moscow Patriarchate and the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia plan to start composing a common list of new saints, martyred by the Bolsheviks, in July 2007.

'The ROCOR has canonized many new martyrs without clear evidence that they were really martyred for their faith, such as interrogation or execution protocols. That could result in some mistakes,' the St. Petersburg Central State Archive official Mikhail Shkarovsky told the participants of the conference on Christianity, Culture and Moral Values in Moscow on Thursday.

According to him, the number of Soviet citizens martyred for their faith is still uncertain. We know, for instance, that out of 300,000 Orthodox clergymen 200,000 were murdered. At the moment, the Moscow Patriarchate has canonized near 1,500 new martyrs.

However, the canonization process involves some problems, Shkarovsky said. In particular, only few new saints martyred during the first two years of the Bolshevik rule have been canonized due to lack of documents. Members of the so-called 'rightwing opposition' or 'Sergianist movement' also have problems with canonization since the church people remain divided over the issue.

Finally, another problem with the canonization is that places of mass execution and burial of the new martyrs are still unknown.

Source: http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=3223



Quote
29 August 2007, 16:53
Moscow Patriarchate and Russian Church Outside Russia can compile single list of new martyrs already within a year - Canonization Commission

St. Petersburg, August 29, Interfax - A single list of new martyrs can be compiled by the Moscow Patriarchate and the Russian Church Outside Russia as now its part within a year, Archpriest Georgy Mitrofanov, a member of the Synodal Canonization Commission, has stated.

�During its summer session in July, the Moscow Patriarchate Commission for Canonization set up a working group, which is to work together with the ROCOR working group for canonization to compile a single calendar list of saints including new martyrs�, Father Georgy told Interfax on Wednesday.

�I believe the two working groups working together will be able to compile within a year a common list of new martyrs, that is, people who suffered for their faith at the hands of the Bolsheviks�, he added.

The work for drafting a common martyrologue will most probably start this autumn, the priest believes.

It is needed, he explained, because in its time the Russian Church Outside Russia canonized new martyrs altogether, including them in the list of saints all at once because it had no opportunity to look into the fate of each separately. In addition, the ROCOR had no access to the archives which documented the behavior of a particular person during interrogations.

�The canonization in the Church Outside Russia was accomplished in this way: first the Assembly of the Saints was glorified with some names given and an icon was composed, depicting also those who were not named specifically, and only after that a list of names was compiled. We did it differently, as each canonization was accomplished individually. We worked slowly, carefully and thoroughly studied the archives�, Father Georgy explained.

Because of this �reversed� order of canonization in the Church Outside Russia some oddities happened, the priest related. For instance, canonized together with the royal family were some of their servants of non-Orthodox faith.

�If in compiling a single list, some disputable points arise, the name under question will not be included in our list. But no formal procedure of de-canonization will be pursued�, Father Georgy said.


The most outstanding person in the ROCOR list of new martyrs, who have not been canonized by the Moscow Patriarchate, is Archbishop Ioann Maksimovich of Shanghai, who was the spiritual leader of the Russian emigres in China after the 1917 Revolution. �He will not need a new canonization; he will be just included in the common list�, Father Georgy Mitrofanov said.

Source: http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=3555

Here are excerpts from the Report of the Holy Synod Commission on the Canonization of Saints With Respect to the Martyrdom of the Imperial Family that was issued in 1996.
Quote
...And what could be said of the unprecedented historical analogy, from the Orthodox point of view, of the decision of the Synod Abroad to include among those canonized with the Royal Family, the martyred czar's servant the Roman Catholic Alois Yegorovich Trupp and court-tutor the Lutheran Yekaterina Adol'fovna Schneider.

...The Commission came to the conclusion that a very appropriate way of honoring the Christian feats of the Royal Family's loyal servants who shared in their tragic fate, would be to immortalize this feat in the written lives of the Royal martyrs. Thus, at the present time the violent death suffered by these laymen as a result of their carrying out of their moral duty to the Royal Family cannot be presumed to be a martyr's death for confessing the Christian faith.

So, I am assuming now that the servants killed along with Romanov Imperial Family and the Grand Dukes killed alongside Saint Elizabeth Feodorovna and the Nun Saint Barbara have also been de-canonized.

I too would like to see some links to these sources.
ROCOR, on its own, not being autocephalous, did not and does not have the final say in glorification.

Of course, since we do not have a top down canonization process, people are still free to venerate those "decanonized," and perhaps their glorification awaits a future date. The action/statement of the PoM isn't the final word. The Head of the Church (IX XC) gets the final word.

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Of course, since we do not have a top down canonization process, people are still free to venerate those "decanonized," and perhaps their glorification awaits a future date. The action/statement of the PoM isn't the final word.

Apparently it was the final word in removing these from public veneration by any community of ROCOR (or anyone else in communion with the MP), top-down.

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I don't even have the energy to address this issue anymore. It was posted by me to illustrate a point that would be lost on anyone outside of ROCOR. Yet for those who grew up in ROCOR and sat with bishops and the agents of change who advised them; listening to the promises that the very essence of who were were, would not be lost. Oh how lamentable the situation is now.

And I know, next thing this thread will be closed for it is not ecumenical in nature with everyone agreeing that union is a must. As for the ROCOR who once was call ROCA, we have seen just what the effects of a rush to union has.

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Let's just hope that in the world to come ROCORers will get to go to a separate heaven where they won't have to mix with the misguided rest.

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Originally Posted by chadrook
And I know, next thing this thread will be closed for it is not ecumenical in nature with everyone agreeing that union is a must.

chadrook,

Let me just say that perhaps the most tiresome and least contributory comments to any threads here recently are your prophecies and lamentations about the predictability of thread closures and your conviction that all such are inspired by the failure of participants to toe some imaginary party line.

Please find something else about which to grouse or, if you are convinced that this is such a repressive atmosphere in which to post, give a shot at any of several others and see how you fare there.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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What happens to those who have adopted some of the newly decanonized as their patron saints? Do they no longer have patrons? Are they free to choose another? Just wondering.

Has decanonization ever occurred in the Catholic Church? And no, I am not talking about taking a saint off the universal calendar.

Alexis

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Originally Posted by Irish Melkite
Originally Posted by chadrook
And I know, next thing this thread will be closed for it is not ecumenical in nature with everyone agreeing that union is a must.

chadrook,

Let me just say that perhaps the most tiresome and least contributory comments to any threads here recently are your prophecies and lamentations about the predictability of thread closures and your conviction that all such are inspired by the failure of participants to toe some imaginary party line.

Please find something else about which to grouse or, if you are convinced that this is such a repressive atmosphere in which to post, give a shot at any of several others and see how you fare there.

Many years,

Neil
I'm not sure which union Chadrook is speaking of here, with Old Rome or Third Rome?

I have a response for Diak, but not knowing what calendar he is on (I'm a new calendarist myself, so it just a technical matter for me), I'm holding off until after Gregorian Easter.

Happy Easter to all this weekend, especially you IM.

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Chadrook is speaking of the unification of MP and ROCOR.

Happy upcoming Easter to you too and to everyone here. Tonight I am going to a Good Friday evening service at a Presbyterian church. Their choir will be singing lamentation pieces. I have not been to a Presbyterian church as of yet, it will be my first time.

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Originally Posted by Logos - Alexis
What happens to those who have adopted some of the newly decanonized as their patron saints? Do they no longer have patrons? Are they free to choose another? Just wondering.
People have Seraphim Rose now, who hasn't been glorified yet by any autocephalous Primate and Holy Synod. As I pointed out above, the only higher authority needed for veneration of someone comes from a supremer authority than a Patriarch.
Originally Posted by Logos - Alexis
Has decanonization ever occurred in the Catholic Church? And no, I am not talking about taking a saint off the universal calendar.
Alexis
St. Gregory Palamas was kept, then removed, then restored by the Melkite Patriarchate which receives its pallium from the supreme pontiff of Paster Aeternus, who seems to have the sole authority, to those who subscribe to it, to canonize anyone. St. Photios the Great also seems to fluctuate.

When the purge of the "universal calender" took place, btw, no one technically was "taken off": the calendar was issued with no such comment.
Quote
POPE MARCHES 40 SAINTS OFF OFFICIAL CHURCH CALENDAR

From: Wire Services—UPI
Vatican City— The Roman Catholic church dropped St. Christopher, the travelers' patron, and more than 40 other saints from its official calendar Friday.

In a separate action it also made optional the commemoration of more than 90 other saints, including St. Nicholas, from whom evolved the Christmas legend of Santa Claus.

Those dropped from the liturgical calendar were removed because of doubt that they ever existed. The action seemed certain to confuse many Catholics who have been venerating them for years.

The reclassification of St. Nicholas, whose legend as patron saint of children grew in some countries into the Santa Claus tradition, was made for a different reason.

Church authorities stressed that there was no doubt of the authenticity of St. Nicholas, a southern Italian bishop, or of another saint similarly affected-St. George, the legendary dragon slayer who has been patron saint of England since the Crusades.

Their commemoration was made an option of local authorities throughout the world simply to relieve the entire church of the obligation to honor saints not universally well-known, Vatican spokesmen said...The sweeping reform of the list which includes feasts, fasts, special days, and other religious occasions-downgraded saints whose existence or exploits are now doubtful. The decree was aimed at putting more emphasis on the crucifixion and Christ.

The exact number of saints affected by the decree, dated Feb. 14 and effective Jan. 1, was not known because the Vatican did not issue an official list of those dropped or demoted, only of those still in good standing. Newsmen had to compare old calendars with the new list. There were at least 40 affected.

Comparison of lists took hours and was complicated by the new list which was issued only in Latin language. Confusion was compounded by the fact that some of the expunged saints were inadequately identified.
http://www.stnicholascenter.org/pages/upi/
St. Nicholas and St. George "not universally well-known." OK

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Originally Posted by Irish Melkite
Originally Posted by chadrook
And I know, next thing this thread will be closed for it is not ecumenical in nature with everyone agreeing that union is a must.

chadrook,

Let me just say that perhaps the most tiresome and least contributory comments to any threads here recently are your prophecies and lamentations about the predictability of thread closures and your conviction that all such are inspired by the failure of participants to toe some imaginary party line.

Please find something else about which to grouse or, if you are convinced that this is such a repressive atmosphere in which to post, give a shot at any of several others and see how you fare there.

Many years,

Neil


Neil, I agree. If I have slighted you in any way, forgive me. And you are correct, it is a perception I have fostered in myself.

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Sed contra: Vatican proclaims 65 new 20th-century martyrs

CWN – March 28, 2013

The Vatican has issued a series of proclamations proclaimed 65 new martyrs, all from the 20th century.

In a series of decrees issued on March 27 with the approval of Pope Francis, the Congregation for the Causes of Saints testified to the martyrdom of people from Spain, Romania, Germany, Hungary, and Italy. [See the link for a complete listing of the new 20th-century martyrs.]

The Congregation also affirmed a miracle attributed to the intercession of Maria Theresa Bonzel (1830- 1905), the German founder of the Sisters of St. Francis of Perpetual Adoration. Like the martyrs named on the same day, she is now eligible for beatification.

Finally, the Vatican decrees attested to the “heroic virtue” of 7 candidates: 5 priests, one lay brother, and a laywoman. All could become eligible for beatification if a miracle is attributed to their intercession.

Additional sources for this story: Promulgation of Decrees by Congregation for Causes of Saints (VIS) visnews-en.blogspot.com/2013/03/promulgation-of-decrees-by-congregation.html

PROMULGATION OF DECREES BY CONGREGATION FOR CAUSES OF SAINTS

visnews-en.blogspot.com/2013/03/promulgation-of-decrees-by-congregation.html

Vatican City, 28 March 2013 (VIS) – Yesterday, Wednesday 27 March 2013, the Holy Father received in audience Cardinal Angelo Amato S.D.B., prefect of the Congregation for the Causes of Saints. During the course of the audience the pontiff authorised the dicastery to promulgate the decrees concerning the following causes::

MIRACLE

- attributed to the intercession of the Venerable Servant of God Maria Theresia Bonzel (nee Regina Christine Wilhelmine Bonzel), foundress of the Sisters of St. Francis of Perpetual Adoration in Olpe, Germany. Born in Olpe on 17 September 1830 and died there on 6 February 1905.

MARTYRDOM

- Servant of God Manuel Basulto y Jimenez, bishop of Jaen, Spain, and five Companions; killed in hatred of the faith in Spain between 1936 and 1937.

- Servant of God Jose Maximo Moro Briz and four Companions, priests of the Diocese of Avila, Spain; killed in hatred of the faith in Spain in 1936.

- Servant of God Vladimir Ghika, priest of the archdiocese of Bucharest, Romania. Born in Istanbul, Turkey on 25 December 1873 and killed in hatred of the faith in Bucharest on 16 May 1954.

- Servant of God Joaquin Jovani Marin and 14 Companions from the Diocesan Labourer Priests of the Sacred Heart of Jesus; killed in hatred of the faith in Spain between 1936 and 1938.

- Servant of God Andres from Palazuelo (ne Miguel Francisco Gonzalez-Diez Gonzalez-Nunez), professed priest of the Order of Capuchin Friars Minor, and 31 Companions; killed in hatred of the faith in Spain between 1936 and 1937.

- Servant of God Giuseppe Girotti, professed priest of the Order of Preachers. Born in Alba, Italy, on 19 July 1905 and killed in hatred of the faith in Dachau, Germany, in 1945.

- Servant of God Stefano Sandor, professed religious of the Salesians of Don Bosco. Born in Szolnok, Hungary, on 26 October 1914 and killed in hatred of the faith in Budapest, Hungary, on 8 June 1953.

- Servant of God Rolando Rivi, seminarian of the diocese of Reggio Emilia-Guastalla. Born in Castellarano, Italy, on 7 January 1931 and killed in hatred of the faith in Piane di Monchio, Italy, on 13 April 1945.

HEROIC VIRTUES

- Servant of God Eladio Mozas Santamera, diocesan priest and founder of the Josephine Sisters of the Most Holy Trinity. Born in Miedes de Atienza, Spain, on 18 February 1837 and died in Plasencia, Spain, on 18 March 1897.

- Servant of God Manuel Aparici Navarro, diocesan priest. Born in Madrid, Spain, on 11 December 1902 and died there on 28 August 1964.

- Servant of God Moises Lira Serafin, professed priest of the Missionaries of the Holy Spirit and founder of the Missionaries of Charity of Mary Immaculate. Born in Zacatlan, Mexico, on 16 September 1893 and died in Mexico City, Mexico on 25 June 1950.

- Servant of God Generoso of the Crucified (ne Angelo Fontanarosa), professed priest of the Congregation of the Passion of Jesus Christ. Born in Vetralla, Italy, on 6 November 1881 and died in Mascalucia, Italy, on 9 January 1966.

- Servant of God Olinto Marella, diocesan priest. Born in Pallestrina, Italy, on 14 June 1882 and died in San Lazzaro di Savena, Italy, on 6 September 1969.

- Servant of God Antoine Kowalczyk, lay brother of the Missionary Oblates of Mary Immaculate. Born in Dzierzanow, Poland, on 04 June 1866 and died in Edmonton, Canada on 10 July 1947.

- Servant of God Silvia Cardoso Ferreiro da Silva, laywoman. Born in Pacos de Ferreira, Portugal, on 26 July 1882 and died there on 2 November 1950.


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Originally Posted by Tomassus
Sed contra: Vatican proclaims 65 new 20th-century martyrs
And?
Originally Posted by Tomassus
- Servant of God Vladimir Ghika, priest of the archdiocese of Bucharest, Romania. Born in Istanbul, Turkey on 25 December 1873 and killed in hatred of the faith in Bucharest on 16 May 1954.
misspelled, btw. It's "Ghica"

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Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Happy Easter to all this weekend, especially you IM.

A blessed Easter to you as well, my brother.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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Originally Posted by chadrook
Neil, I agree. If I have slighted you in any way, forgive me. And you are correct, it is a perception I have fostered in myself.

God forgives, who am I not to forgive. If I have been harsh or uncharitable in my dealings with you, my brother, please forgive me. Prayers that you have a blessed and rewarding remainder of the Great Fast.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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