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I was with some Latin Catholics yesterday and was surprised to learn that their "standard" Glory Be prayer has been changed from:

Glory be to the Father,
and to the Son,
and to the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning,
is now,
and ever shall be,
world without end. Amen

to:

Glory to the Father,
and to the Son,
and to the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning,
is now,
and will be forever. Amen

My question is ... what is proper Byzantine Way of saying this prayer?

No one knew why the Latins changed their prayer, but only that it was so decided in Rome.

Is it done for time constraints?

Dan L

Translations, words, translations, words, translations......
Everything in ecclesiastical language is always changing!

Rose: You should hear the cacophony when Greek Orthodox faithful try to recite the Nicene Creed in English! I learned it with totally different words than its other English translation which is also in use. (You would think that our Archdiocese would get their act together to promote ONE accepted version... :rolleyes: )

I remember being in the fifth grade of Sunday School and studying and memorizing the long Nicene Creed in both Greek and English the whole year, and being so proud of myself when I got it right on weekly tests. (We took it one stanza at a time)

Now, when I am in many churches, I sound like a babbling fool because I never know what translation they will be using!

Atleast, it is always the same in Greek!

In the Risen Christ,
Alice

The "Glory Be to the Father" is not a part of the Latin Church Mass, so you must have heard it in another context. I heard a rosary tape by Mother Angelica's group, and they used the newer translation, also. I think it is just that, a newer translation. Sometimes new translations are done for accuracy, or to update to what is now more standard English. I have suspected that some groups, like ICEL, do new translations so they can sell more publications.

Dear Rose2:

Forgive me if I am skeptical about your observation.

In what context were these Latin friends of yours were using the "Glory be..?"

Every Latin Catholic I know still uses the standard:

Glory be to the Father,
and to the Son,
and to the Holy Spirit.

As it was in the beginning,
is now,
and ever shall be,
world without end.

Amen.

Or, its original Latin version:

Gloria Patri,
et Filio,
et Spiritui Sancto.

Sicut erat in principio,
et nunc,
et semper,
et in saecula saeculorum.

Amen.

When did Rome "shorten" it? Can you ask them what document was issued "authorizing" such version?

Thanks.

Amado

Dear Charles:

Mother Angelica's EWTN shows how the Rosary is prayed and uses the standard as I posted above.

http://www.ewtn.com/Devotionals/prayers/rosary/how_to.htm

Probably it was a outside group having their Rosary broadcast by EWTN?

Amado

What is used in the Mass is the doxology major "Gloria in Excelsis Deo," while the doxology minor "Glory be" is used in praying the Holy Rosary, among others.

Amado

But is not the "world without end" part a bad English translation of "saecula saeculorum"? Is it also not bad theology? The "world" is going to end at some point.

'Now and forever and unto the ages of ages'....
this is what we use in Orthodoxy...might that be more accurate than 'world without end'?

"world without end" is a bad translation because the world will end. A literal translation of the Latin would be "and forever (always) and in the ages of ages. In English translations of the Liturgy of the Hours the Glory be which concludes every pslam and canticle always ended with now and forever.

Fr. Deacon Lance

This type of translation, namely "world without end", goes back to the King James and Douay-Rheims translations of the Bible. (see esp. Eph 3:21).
http://www.godstruthfortoday.org/Library/charts/EonAndEonianInVariousVersions.htm

Of course the "world" that is without end is the "world to come"; The idea is that we are not talking about time per se but of a reality that is, as the case may be, within, or outside of time, past present or future.

This has been discussed on the forum previously:
https://www.byzcath.org/bboard/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=001437;p=2

By the way, the other change is the dropping of "be". I notice this in our newer texts as well, and also in OCA texts. I wonder how th ediscussion went on this point. Did anyone think that we really ought to have a verb in the first phrase?

Just my Latin 2cs worth, my 1995 edition of the Byzantine Prayer Book reads Glory be... now and ever, and forever,amen. now as to the modern RC Liturgy of the Hours it reads Glory to .... as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be forever, amen. My preferred Breviary is from 1965 and reads Glory be... As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end, amen.

Guess it depends on which ignites your spirit, be you East or West, I use the 1995 Byzantine Prayer Book & the 1965 Roman Breviary.

james

The Old Calendar Greeks (Holy Transfiguration Monastery) and the Russian Old Ritualists (Erie) also use "Glory" rather than "Glory be", so I don't think this is some sort of OCA revisionism. Perhaps the Byzantine Catholics in the 1930's and 1940's simply copied the translation in use among the Latin-rite Catholics of the time?

Jeff

The Hapgood book also does not insert the "be" into the "Glory," these texts received the blessing of (now Saint) TIKHON in 1921.

Holy Transfiguration Monastery goes a step further: In some places in Greek, the definite article is omitted, while in others, it is present, and HTM preserves this in English:

Glory to Father, and to Son, and to Holy Spirit, now and always, and unto the ages of ages. Amen
Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, now and always, and unto the ages of ages. Amen

HTM's translation greatly influenced ROCOR, which they were a part of once upon a time. The Old Ritualists in Erie are part of ROCOR and use ROCOR's translations.

BTW, there are several groups of Old Calendar Greeks not in Communion with one another. After Holy Transfiguration Monastery left ROCOR, they obtained bishops and became their own jurisdiction, HOCNA. One group is now under the Patriarch of Constantinople, its bishop having been received as laymen and re-ordained.

Photius