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#87006 11/08/04 06:09 PM
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Dearest Charles,

No argument there!

But that beads or prayer ropes can have miraculous powers - that is part of Catholic/Orthodox tradition.

The "Way of the Pilgrim" actually has a passage where the issue of how a holy Elder's prayer rope can have miraculous powers (from God, of course) is discussed.

St Pio of Pietrelcina's rosary exudes a wonderful fragrance - a miracle in itself!

The same is true for any sacramental by which God chooses to do His Work.

Alex

#87007 11/08/04 06:30 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by byzanTN:
As I said, I have no objection if anyone wants to say the rosary as a private devotion. When you have dealt with Latinized BCs who want to say it before Divine Liturgy, it kind of sours things. Some of the more extreme proponents of that devotion can get a little overbearing with it and make outlandish claims for it.
Dear byzanTN,

A Byzantine parish my family used to attend did just that - they prayed the rosary before Divine Liturgy. It used to drive my husband nuts! He loves the rosary but doesn't feel it should supplant the Orthros in a Byzantine parish.

When he tried to encourage the use of the chotki, the (mostly Latin Rite) parishioners told him, "oh, but the Rosary has an indulgence and the chotki doesn't."

Tammy

#87008 11/08/04 06:43 PM
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Dear Tammy,

So they begged your husband's indulgence, did they? smile

How is our champion Beadswoman?!

I just LOVE the beads you made for me . . .

Everyone, this is Tammy the Rosary-Maker!

Put in those orders for Christmas!!

God bless!

Alex

#87009 11/08/04 07:05 PM
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Dear Tony, +May the LORD bless you always! The groups of Orthodox that pray the Rosary are several: Russian Orthodox Monastics, Carpathio- Rusins, some Belarusians, and the Russian Old Believers (Old Rite Orthodox). Those are the groups that I know of, although there are probably more. In many Carpatho-Russian parishes the Rosary was chanted before the Liturgy (and not necessarily in place OF Matins of the day, but in addition to!). There are fewer and fewer of these parishes doing this today. It kind of reminds me of the Prayer Rule at St. John the Baptist Monastery in Essex, England where the Chotki is chanted quietly in a very regular tone in place of the Hours as their prayer rule.

I always remember an holy and gentle elderly Carpatho-Russian priest (since reposed) who was pastor of a small and VERY difficult parish on the East Coast. We visited him once and asked about his parish and he told us, "Well Fathers some Sunday mornings I get up and look out the window at the church and knowing all the nastiness I'm probably going to face when I go over there---I turn often to Pani and say, "Would to be a lot nicer just to stay home and pray the Rosary?" Having spent 18 years in a VERY difficult Byelorussian emigre parish...I can tell you honestly, I've OFTEN had the same desire. smile

Again: Prayer is prayer is prayer...etc. etc.!

May we ALL do more of it and less talk ABOUT it!

In His Holy Name,
+Father Gregory


+Father Archimandrite Gregory, who asks for your holy prayers!
#87010 11/08/04 10:49 PM
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Trappist Father Basil Pennington in Praying by Hand says (p.33): "Of the many ways in which the Rosary can be prayed, no one is (necessarily) better than the others. Using one rather than another does not mark a certain progress in prayer. On a particular day or at a particular time of day, for one reason or another, one approach to praying the beads might better suit us or be more attractive to us ... Remember always, prayer is the thing. Communion with God is what we are about, what we are interested in � not saying the Rosary well or in the most 'advanced' way. We want to pray."

Personally, I believe that the Holy Rosary is a gift to all who would wish to use it...a gift from the Mother of God and from the Church. It is NOT more 'Eastern' to use a chotki...nor is it any less 'Orthodox' to do so. Use what works best for YOU. For me it is among the MOST comforting of prayers and more 'liturgical' than many others. Meditation on the 'mysteries of our salvation' and specifically on the Passion, Death, and Resurrection of Our Divine Savior must be among THE best ways to unite ourselves with Him in prayer? In the end, the Rosary helped to make a Saint out of my grandmother and my mother...and countless millions of others over the centuries---can it not do something for me too, poor sinner that I am?

I remember a young archimandrite (from the Carpatho-Russian Diocese) who use to mock the practice of some older women from their diocese using the Rosary. He called it a "Roman Catholic devotion" and one not worthy of an Orthodox Christian. Where is he now? He left...both the priesthood and the monastic state. Metropolitan Nicholas of Amissos told me once, "Father don't ever forget your roots and the great gifts you received from them"---I've failed at times, but thanks be to God and His Most Holy Mother, I hope I'm getting better at it as I age. May it be so!

MOST HOLY MOTHER OF GOD SAVE US!

Her faithful and poorest son,
+Father Gregory


+Father Archimandrite Gregory, who asks for your holy prayers!
#87011 11/09/04 03:25 AM
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I attend a Carpatho-Rusyn Byzantine parish. We recently had a parish "town hall" meeting. One of the presenters represented the Confraternity of the Rosary, who recite the Rosary before the Divine Liturgy, along with some Rusyn hymns. He pointed out that his grandmother, who had been left in the Old World while his grandfather came to America to get established, had started praying the Rosary with some of the other women who had been left behind, as well as engaging in Apostolic works, under the direction of the local bishop.
When it came time for her husband to summon her to join him in Ohio, she was reluctant to go! She had become accustomed to living this evangelical life. In sorrow, she consulted the bishop. He instructed her to take the Rosary devotion to her new home, to organize the women of her new community to pray it. And so she did, and the Rosary has continued to be prayed before Liturgy to this day in the parish.
He ended, in reply to the "purist" critics: "this has been done for four generations in this church; if that is not tradition, then what is?"
Amen, and amen.
-Daniel

#87012 11/09/04 01:01 PM
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"He ended, in reply to the "purist" critics: "this has been done for four generations in this church; if that is not tradition, then what is?"
Amen, and amen.
-Daniel"

I call it Latinization. As I have said before, I have no objection to the rosary as a private devotion. My experience, however, is that the rosary often supplants and replaces valid Eastern devotions. That I don't like! If that church is doing the rosary AND the prayers prescribed to be said before Divine Liturgy, then fine. If the rosary is replacing prescribed prayers, it should be stopped, or the appropriate prayers added.

#87013 11/09/04 04:37 PM
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ByzanTN wrote: "As I have said before, I have no objection to the rosary as a private devotion. My experience, however, is that the rosary often supplants and replaces valid Eastern devotions. That I don't like! If that church is doing the rosary AND the prayers prescribed to be said before Divine Liturgy, then fine. If the rosary is replacing prescribed prayers, it should be stopped, or the appropriate prayers added."

I for one, would be happy to LEAD the rosary before the liturgy on a sunday morning, if I could get one pastor, somewhere, to have VESPERS on saturday night.

#87014 11/09/04 05:03 PM
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Dear TN, The danger I guess is that we become Pharisaical about our prayers...and are more concerned about what is the "proper prayer" than what works for the people of a given community? In my former emigre parish in Queens, NY, we did the 3RD and 6TH Hours always before Liturgy (as the Typikon of St. Sabbas prescribes) and yet the people present were busy going to Confession or saying their Prayers Before Holy Communion or reading the daily prayers from their prayerbooks or even (for a few) using their chotkies. NO ONE ever listened to the chanting of the Hours. And after 18 years, even I gave up trying to get them to do so. Besides, the Psalms (my personal MOST favorite prayerbook) need a good deal of Scriptural study BEFORE a person can pray them. I had this in my monastic training and in seminary, but the average person has had little or NO Biblical study. I didn't have the time to do extensive preaching on the Psalms...but I tried to weave them into my regular preaching on the Gospel text of the day. The question therefore becomes: Should we do what has always been done and what the 'law' (ustav) prescribes or pray together the Jesus Prayer out loud or say, perhaps the Pre-Communion Prayers before Liturgy? I guess you'd say the first...and I would prefer the later...because I don't think the Hours are suppose to be 'filler' but rather actual P R A Y E R. When all is said and done, I must ask myself: having kept the "rule" are my people going to be closer to the Lord or farther away? (that's a pastoral question, I know, but still one that is VERY important for those of us who must answer one day before the Awesome Judgment Seat of Christ.) Personally after almost 40 years as a monk and 25 as a priest, I'm always going to go for the 'means' by which my people can be brought closer to the Lord. That's just my 4 cents worth.

My best to you!

In His Holy Name,
+Fr. Gregory


+Father Archimandrite Gregory, who asks for your holy prayers!
#87015 11/09/04 06:40 PM
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Fr. Gregory, in large measure, I agree with you. You are talking about doing the best you can in a less than ideal situation. But you are not being disobedient and doing what you want, instead of what you are supposed to do. There is a huge difference there.

#87016 11/09/04 06:44 PM
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Bless, Father Gregory,

My grandfather, Fr. John, used to tell me about his experiences in this regard.

He said that when he worked at a Slovak Greek-Catholic parish, the people all came with their prayerbooks and they all sang with their Cantor - a very sophisticated group of Eastern Christians, as he said.

Others were less sophisticated . . . but nonetheless sincere about their prayer life.

I used to go to confession to my grandfather and I loved receiving the benefit of his years of experience (he was a priest for seventy years, when Josef Slipyj was arrested by the communists, Met. Josef ordered his livestock be brought to my grandfather's farm for safe-keeping until he returned!)

I once confessed to him that I had missed my prayers.

Until that point, Fr. John was listening calmly to me.

But at that, he jumped on me and sad, "Don't you EVER do that! There's no excuse for that, you know! No matter what distractions or busyness you have, don't forget to fulfill your "rule" (I didn't then know what he meant and I didn't ask for an explanation).

"You can use any prayer, even a short "Lord have mercy!"

He used to say the Hours regularly, at the appointed times (I still have his horologion).

But he preferred to walk about and pray using the Our Father and Hail Mary.

As I learned from him, prayer can be most effective when it is done frequently and with the simplest of forms.

The rosary is a simple form of prayer that has taught me to contemplate the mysteries of Christ through the window of His Incarnation and His Most Holy Mother.

It goes to the centre of our Christian faith and is very accessible to one and all, to simple folk and learned scholars.

The Orthodox nuns of Diveyevo walk around the perimeter of their monastery to recite the rosary/rule because St Seraphim taught them that the Mother of God herself walks that path once each day . . .

They recite the rosary/rule together, out loud, as they all walk together. On Sundays and feasts, they sing the Rule together.

If people wish to recite the rosary before Divine Liturgy, well, what can one do? smile

It does indeed bring one closer to the Mysteries of Christ that the Divine LIturgy celebrates and makes the Incarnation VERY real to us.

When I receive Holy Communion, the experience is heightened for me when, at that moment, I recite the Magnificat and am united deeply (as I feel I am) to Christ and His Mother.

It is as if they meet together within my soul and I am watching them speak to one another!

I wonder what they are talking about? Do you think it could be about me and what I need to do to grow in union with Christ and the Holy Trinity?

I'm content to experience a little of that joy!

My soul magnifies the Lord and my spirit exults in God my Saviour!!

Kissing your right hand, Venerable Father, I implore your blessing once more,

Your unworthy servant,

Alex

#87017 11/09/04 10:02 PM
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Can I add a simple "Thank You, Father Gregory" for your most welcome posting on the rosary. Your intentions will always be included in my prayers.

#87018 11/10/04 02:05 AM
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Hey Tennessee- If four generations of a devotion, one many of us believe was revealed and encouraged by the Mother of God, represents not a legitimate Eastern Catholic [remember?] devotion, then may I suggest that you are perhaps a bit ideological in your approach to things? As Fr Gregory says, prayer is prayer. Or are Eastern Catholics to have no distinctive marks? Are we to be merely second class, and not even duly recognized, Orthodox?
Thank God you are not a pastor; your purist attitudes would scandalize the simple faithful, which some of us consider the true barometer of orthodoxy.
-Daniel, the beadsman

#87019 11/10/04 02:13 AM
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Originally posted by iconophile:
Hey Tennessee- If four generations of a devotion, one many of us believe was revealed and encouraged by the Mother of God, represents not a legitimate Eastern Catholic [remember?] devotion, then may I suggest that you are perhaps a bit ideological in your approach to things? As Fr Gregory says, prayer is prayer. Or are Eastern Catholics to have no distinctive marks? Are we to be merely second class, and not even duly recognized, Orthodox?
Thank God you are not a pastor; your purist attitudes would scandalize the simple faithful, which some of us consider the true barometer of orthodoxy.
-Daniel, the beadsman
No, what I am getting at is that when people disregard lawful authority and legitimate directions to do as they please, then a problem exists. I could see, as Fr. Gregory indicated, making a decision based on his experiences for the good of all. But willful disobedience is another matter. There is no "purity" in willful disobedience.

#87020 11/10/04 02:18 AM
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Uh, if you recall the grandmother in question who initiated this devotion in my parish did so at the direct order of her bishop . How in the heck does this constitute disobedience? Even if you argue that said bishop was a Latinizer [and given the age, this may well be so] by now it is an established tradition in this particular community. I thought that one of the guiding principles of Eastern Christianity was a hearty respect for localism.
-Daniel, Eastern purist, but open to the Holy Spirit

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