www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West The Catholic Church has apologized, when will the Orthodox Churches?

As many of you know on the first Sunday of Lent , His Holiness Pope John Paul II asked forgiveness for the sins committed by members of the Catholic Church. In particular, His Holiness asked forgiveness for the times in history when Catholics sinned against members of other Christian denominations. Although there were no specific events mentioned, it is implied that the Pope has asked forgiveness for the sins committed by Catholics towards Eastern Christians, such as during the Crusades and the Sack of Constantinople.

I am very proud of this Pope for taking such an historic step in asking forgiveness for the sins of fellow Catholics in history. From what I have read in newspapers and in Catholic radio programs, many people are happy that the Pope did this. In fact, there are non-Catholics who have been so affected by this appeal for forgiveness that they are actually investigating the possibility of converting to Catholicism.

My question is when will the Orthodox Churches-specifically the Russian Orthodox Church- apologize for the way it persecuted the Eastern Catholic Churches? Since many of you are already familiar with the history of how Byzantine Catholics were persecuted by the Orthodox Churches, I won't go into details, but is a fact that the Orthodox Churches deliberately at certain times in history(especially during the communist control of Russia and Eastern Europe)persecuted the Byzantine Catholic Church.

Yes, the Orthodox Churches in eastern Europe were used by the communists, but it is documented fact that many bishops and priests cooperated with the communists in persecuting Byzantine Catholic to such a horrible degree(confiscating churhes and monasteries, shipping priests and monks to Siberia). As a result, we have many martyrs, many of whom are being investigated for canonization.

I applaud the Romanian Orthodox Church for being the first Orthodox Church to ask forgiveness for the way it treated the Romanian Catholics. When will the Russian Orthodox Church?

Personally, I am "ticked off" that the Russian Orthodox Church keeps speaking of Byzantine Catholics as a "problem that needs to be resolved". When will Patriarch Alexei II apologize to Ukrainian and Ruthenian Catholics for the way members of the ROC persecuted them?

Does not the apology of the Pope put the Patriach of Moscow in the spotlight?

I look forward to your comments.

[This message has been edited by Byzantino (edited 03-18-2000).]

Dear Byzantino,
I have a few issues for you to ponder and to evalaute. First, it may seem to be an excellent gesture of a public confession in regards to all the historical and theological atrocities committed in the name of the Roman Catholic Church without making specific apologies to specific subjects. However the act alone does not cut the cake. The Pope should have been specific to whom he was asking for forgiveness rather blantly admitting an act of public contrition on behalf of all the "sons and daughters of the church." This public act of contrition is no different when Orthodox bishops and priests during divine liturgy ask forgiveness from the entire Church. Repentance is a must as well as seeking forgiveness from the inflicted and persecuted. The Crusades are still fresh in the minds of Orthodox Christians and Muslims and Jews. The theological manipulations of Holy Tradition by Rome against Orthodoxy continue. I sincerely feel that the repentance of the Papacy can be the beginning of a sincere relationship. However, Rome has much to ask for forgiveness for what she has done unlawful towards Orthodoxy. As I have stated in other posts about Rome being the prodigal son, Orthodoxy awaits her return to the faith of unity as believed and understood by the Apostles. I do not even perceive mass conversions to Catholicism because of a papal repentance until Rome returns to Orthodoxy. Rome needs to be more honest about her historical existence and to admit that she fell outside the fold of Orthodoxy. The Orthodox Church has not ever committed the heinious crimes that are recorded and committed by Rome. The reason is that the Orthodox Church is infallible and not the bishop alone which by the way the doctrine of Papal Infallibility is an error. The Roman Catholic atrocities occurred because she left the Orthodox fold. When will Rome repent of this erroraneous doctrine as well as the doctrines of purgatory, indulgences, filioque,Immaculate Conception, etc? I did not hear or see an apology for these innovations which are violations of Apostolic Traditions. I am certain that if Rome repents and rids of these doctrines unity with Orthodoxy may become a reality. The Papal repentance alone is not enough. St. Peter alone is not enough. The use of the Bread Alone in the Eucharist is not enough. Maybe Rome has realized that it cant do everything alone which alienated the Orthodox Church in the first place as well as created the Protestant Reformation. I have one thing to say to Rome, "Come back home Rome." The Orthodox home.

Dear Robert,
Thank you for your post, however, a lot of what you have writtten in your reply is no different from what have written in other posts. Please do not attempt to change the direction of this discussion.
Based on what you have written, I can see that you probably harbor a lot of intense feelings- such as anger- towards the Roman Catholic Church. Were you originally a Roman Catholic? Did you become Orthodox as result of a bad experience you had in the Catholic Church(ie, liturgical issue)?
Yes, in our history, members of the Catholic Church have treated unfairly members of the Eastern Churches, but it is also true that members of the Orthodox Church treaded unfairly Eastern Catholics. The Holy father has apologized for these crimes, when will the Orthodox patriarchs?

You dismiss this issue simply because the "crimes" committed by the Catholic Church appear to be more heinious than the ones committed by the Orthodx Church. That makes no sense at all, many Eastern Catholics who suffered due to the persecution inflicted by the Orthodox Church would strongly disagree with you as well.

The Pope has no need to apologize for papal infallibility, indulgences, Immaculate Conception, purgatory, etc., because these are truths revealed by God to His Church. These doctrines the Orthodox Churches will believe in when Eastern Orthodoxy accepts the fullness of faith that is the Catholic faith.

Our Lord Himself established the papacy to be the earthly shepard of the Church; the first pope being St. Peter. Before the Schism of 1054, the Pope of Rome had "primacy of honor" over the patriarchates of Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalam. Do you really believethat
God would allow His Church led by the Pope of Rome to fall into errors and heresies only after a thosand years? That does not make any sense.

No other Christian Church can claim to be as universal as the Catholic Church, incorporating people from all races, ethnicities, and liturgical traditions. No other Christian Church has done more missionary work than the Catholic Church. No other Christian Church has a leader who has strongly voiced against the evils in today's society(abortion, wars, hunger, poverty, sexual liberties) than the Catholic Church.

Your intent to overlook the crimes committed by the Orthodox Church towards Eastern Catholics is reflective of the refusal of Eastern Orthodox patriarchs to apologize for the behavior of its faithful towards Eastern Catholics.



[This message has been edited by Byzantino (edited 03-20-2000).]

Byzantino,

I really can't speak for the Orthodox, but I think you're deluded if you think they'll accept papal infallibility and indulgences. I don't even know why our hierarchs accept them. If we have the same doctrines on indulgences and purgatory as Rome, then all we are is RCs in (eastern) drag. What those Latin doctrines show is that when you try to breathe with one lung, you become oxygen deprived and say all sorts of nutty things.

Rob,

�The Pope should have been specific to whom he was asking for forgiveness rather blantly admitting an act of public contrition on behalf of all the "sons and daughters of the church." This public act of contrition is no different when Orthodox bishops and priests during divine liturgy ask forgiveness from the entire Church.�

Elias: Then the Orthodox bishops and priests are just as pitiful and lacking in itemizing their sins. So why should the Pope of Rome be more specific and the Orthodox not? Special treatment?


�Repentance is a must as well as seeking forgiveness from the inflicted and persecuted. The Crusades are still fresh in the minds of Orthodox Christians and Muslims and Jews.�

Elias: This is sad. Do the Orthodox still have possession of Hagia Sophia? Is the confiscation of Orthodox churches (and their destruction) still fresh on the Orthodox mind? How many Patriarchs were killed by the Muslims? Yet the pitiful Orthodox don�t demand the same specific confession from the Muslims. They even build mosques in their monasteries! Singling out one man is a great revelation of the SPECIFIC hatred you and other Orthodox have for the Pope. This is sad.


�The theological manipulations of Holy Tradition by Rome against Orthodoxy continue.�

Elias: Against Orthodoxy? Rome continued its Tradition for 1000 years without Orthodoxy so how did they do all of this against them if they were never on their minds in the first place.


�I sincerely feel that the repentance of the Papacy can be the beginning of a sincere relationship.�

Elias: Actually, I get the feeling you�d rather have him kiss your bu-.


�Rome needs to be more honest about her historical existence��

Elias: As honest as Orthodox heirarchs who cooperated with the Communists in taking Greek Catholic property? I�m still waiting for their apology and the return of many free church building thanks to the commies.


�The reason is that the Orthodox Church is infallible and not the bishop alone which by the way the doctrine of Papal Infallibility is an error.�

Elias: The Catholic Church teaches that Infallibility is also within an Ecumenical Council! In fact, Vatican II even teaches that certain items have to be corrected at an Ecumenical Council. Orthodoxy just wants Rome to drop everything and become Orthodox.


�The Roman Catholic atrocities occurred because she left the Orthodox fold.�

Elias: Not! Atrocities occurred because of the sickness of sin. We are all apt for sin � even the Orthodox. They are not immaculately conceived, ya know.


�The Papal repentance alone is not enough.�

Elias: But you just wrote that repentance is a must. What else is there?


�The use of the Bread Alone in the Eucharist is not enough.�

Elias: The Roman Catholics use both bread and wine. Where have you been?


�Maybe Rome has realized that it cant do everything alone which alienated the Orthodox Church in the first place as well as created the Protestant Reformation.�

Elias: The same goes for the Orthodox. They can�t even have an Ecumenical Council without Rome. Why did the Orthodox Church create the Old Believer Movement? Why did they allow St. Peter the Great to manipulate Orthodox church structures? And lastly, I know of only ONE Ukrainian Catholic Church, but how many Ukrainian Orthodox Churches are there? I lost count after ONE.

Elias

Salam Leejamee'kum,
Again I must stress the truth that the Orthodox Church does not teach or permit persecution and lies that are contrary to the Gospel. However, since Rome left Orthodoxy and declared its independence from Holy Tradition she has but experienced chaos and inflicted much pain on herself as well as on non-Roman Catholics. In regards to the pain Orthodoxy had to endure Catholicism cannot be equated to the same level. The communist controlled Russian Orthodox Church was no longer Orthodox. Its actions speak loud and clear for herself. Why should the Churches of Orthodoxy around the world be held responsible that was anti-Christian? If those people were of an Orthodox background but were practicing anti-Christian, do you truly believe that this is the truth that Orthodoxy promotes? Certainly not! We are all equals before the throne of God, unworthy servants. Is Orthodoxy found in sinful actions? Absolutely not! Why are you wasting time finding wrong with Orthodoxy when it is those who were anti-Christians and anti-Orthodox?
I would like to take this time to let every one know that I DO NOT HATE THE POPE as some of you have insinuated. I pray for his well-being and for the salvation of mankind. I do not accept Catholicism but that does not mean that I behoover a grudge agianst Roman or Byzantine Catholics. I am very privilged to be allowed to post my views on a Byzantine forum. Besides I just married a Roman Catholic a month ago in my Church. Some of you people need to read the history of both Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches in light of Holy Tradition. I will pray for your return to Orthodoxy especially the Melikites.

In Christ,
Robert Sweiss

Robert,

Once again you avoid answering the SPECIFIC questions. Yet you challenge the Catholic Church to ask forgiveness for SPECIFIC sins. I am still waiting for you to stop reading your personalized missionary tracts you have memorized and answer the questions I posted to you. Thank you.

Elias

Laudetur Jesus Christus!
Dear Robert,
I'm very amazed at your ability to avoid answering clearly defined questions.
Pope asked forgivness for the sins committed by catholics throghout centuries, but I don't find it proper to demand apologies for their sins from the very people He just asked.
So in my opinion this topic should be posted by a non-catholic, but considering your extremly unfair opinion I feel forced to reply.
Try to imagine that exactly according to the lines of Your defence of Orthodoxy, some catholics defend Catholicism and strongly oppose Pope for his recent action. Your texts would be very useful for these apologets, if only they change "orthodoxy" for "catholicism" and "orthodox" for "catholic".
Concerning ROC I have one question. Did any of the autocephalous, orthodox Churches, Your Antiochene Patriarchate including, break community with ROC between 1944 and 1991?
I wish You and Your wife all the best, i pray for You and I hope that Your love will change your anticatholic feelings.
Yours in Christ
piotr c

Rob,

Oh, BTW, how many Russian Orthodox Churches are there? Does ROCOR consider itself the True Russian Church? Do all Russian(ized) Orthodox Churches consider the Czar a saint? I was just wondering. There is a lot I would like to understand about Orthodoxy. Maybe you can teach me about the Tradition of overlapping church jurisdictions of the same church tradition and why Orthodoxy fell away from the rule of one bishop in a territory in the United States. How many overlapping Orthodox jurisdictions are ther in the United States now? Teach me. Thanks.

Elias

Elias,

Did you really mean to ask about jurisdictions?

How many jurisdictions are there in Pittsburgh? There's the RC diocese. There's the Byzantine Metroplia of Pittsburgh. Who are the Melkites in Pittsburgh canonically accountable to? What about the Maronites? What about the Ukranians? What about the Romanians?

They may get along better, but canonically, it's no different than the Orthodox, unless all the rest are really just RCs with bells and smells.

Moronikus,

Yes, I know. The point I was trying to make was that there are some Orthodox who claim that only the Roman Church is apt to allowing innovations. Yet the Orthodox also have overlapping jurisdictions which, I believe, goes against the ORTHODOX rule of one bishop/one territory. So what do we make of the multiple Orthodox jurisdictions in this country if this reality ignores proper Orthodox ecclesial praxis? Of course, America is a land of multiple identities, cultures, peoples, etc. But recently there has been talk of merging the Orthodox Churches into one mega-jurisdiction in order to comply with the Orthodox rule of one bishop/one territory. Here is another problem: There is also present the Roman jurisdiction. Who has the right to be that one bishop/one territory? Russia is trying to make this a reality, especially with Christian evangelicals preying on their people for converts. Is multiple jurisdictions a faulty practice? Both the Catholics and the Orthodox practice it. This is my point and I thank you for your examples of the Catholics.

Elias

Ya sayid Elias,
Your questions should be given to one of my Sunday school kids to answer rather than me give you the answers. At any rate, I believe you went on a tangent and are trying to divert from the topic. I have made many written posts to the questions you asked and you owe it to yourself to find them. Evasion or bombardment are not techniques I use as you have committed. Look up my posts. I have no desire to repeat what I have previously posted or this good topic will become diverted with your rhetorics. The Uniate Church is a problem that offends and abandons the teachings of Holy Tradition. Catholicism and anything that is in communion with it I have placed on the endangered species list. I do know that most of the Roman Catholic Churches in Chicago utilize the Bread Alone in their version of Eucharistic worship. They do have the wine available but laity does not partake of it. When handing their wafer eucharist, the priests or their eucharistic ministers say, "The Body of Christ." What happened to the "Blood of Christ",Mr. Elias? Avoidance to present and to state the "Blood of Christ," to the laity is a violation of Holy Tradition and you are in communion with this. However you would come back and say,"Oh, that's okay because that is their tradition and we have our own or that the Catechism #1390 justifies this atrocity." How do you explain this slap-in-the-face of Holy Tradition? If it is okay by you then why don't the Melikites use the UNLEAVENED BREAD ALONE in your Eucharistic services since Rome knows and practices best. Rome needs to repent of this wicked violation of Holy Tradition especially for inventing eucharistic ministers amongst the laity, female and male. It is no secret that I do have contempt for Catholicism and Associates. However, I do believe you can be saved if you return to the fullness of the Orthodox Church. I do not cast any sort of judgement on you for God is worthy of handling that position. I will never stop with my evangelization of Catholics and Protestants to Orthodoxy. I am a nice guy once you get to know me in person. I do have Melikite relatives that I am working on and it is just a matter of time once they realize the violations of Catholicism against Holy Tradition.

Happy Fasting

While Robert is certainly welcome to present his views, it should be always be noted that his views are far different from those of Orthodoxy. When I want to know what Orthodoxy believes, I look to the canonical, ancient patriarchates, to what is commonly held among them.

I do not intend to be drawn into a polemical discussion during this season of the Great Fast, but I would like to encourage everyone to put aside the polemics for the moment and consider participating in the discussions in "The Eastern Road" forum. Brendan Ross has several posts that provide much for us to reflect on. Is anyone here interested in growing spiritually? Or are polemics the center of our faith?

Rob,

Wafer Eucharist? I sense an inkling of the derogatory here. Read the Gospel of Luke and Acts. You will see that the author(s) mention the 'breaking of the bread' and rarely refer to the wine. Not to give the Latins credence to their once bread-only practice, but it interesting anyways. BTW, many Orthodox and Byzantine Catholics give wine-eucharist only to infants since infants cannot receive the Body of Christ at that age. Presanctified eucharist (Body only) is reserved for liturgies during weekdays of Lent. Ordinary wine is then added.

Are you not a member of a canonical Orthodox Church?

Elias


[This message has been edited by Elias (edited 03-22-2000).]

Laudetur Jesus Christus!
Elias, I thank you for explainig latin position on eucharist.
Robert, up untill now I didn't expect You to avoid uneasy questions. Answer my question please, if I'm to preserve my opinion about You as honest antagonist.
In Christ
piotr c