www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West The Catholic Church has apologized, when will the Orthodox Churches?

Dear piotrc,
What question(s) are you referring to as many unnecessary ones have been listed ? I will tackle ones that should be related to the stated topic. However, if you feel the need to begin a new topic I will be there. In regards to Papal apologies, I am waiting for a Papal apology for the violations against Holy Traditions. But I think I won't get one because of Rome's arrogancy and pride. I could be wrong but I shall wait and see. However, I have a great question for you. How is it that the Holy Spirit can abide in the Roman Catholic Church during and after heinous atrocities committed against Orthodoxy let alone against other peoples? Did the Holy Spirit encourage the Crusades, the Inquistions, partake of the Jewish Holocaust? Is this the Rome you know? The only church I have known to make an apology for recorded atrocites is your church. For your information, Orthodoxy has not ever committed such things and there are no apologies to be made. I certainly can understand that guilt has been eating away at your church and the Papal need to return to Orthodoxy. Could Rome be suffering a financial deficit and trying to promote indulgences to make more liras(money) for "original guilt"?

Dear Moose,
Many of my views are common amongst Orthodox people, whether canonical or uncanonical. I know of our previous encounters that you have stated that my views are far different than what the Orthodox believe which is not entirely true. I will admit my stance is quite harsh towards Catholicism and affilaites however I offer no apologies. The Roman Church has been set on fire and fuming smoke. It is no wonder or surprise that we watch the news to hear the Pope ask for forgiveness.

Rob,

The Pope has done what many other bishops cannot or will not do - ask forgiveness. Only those with a cold heart and who think they can throw the first stone need not ask for forgiveness. Obviously, you imagine all the Orthodox bishops to be immuned from sin. Is this a hint that you have a latent belief in the Immaculate Conception, albeit one only for Orthodox bishops and not the Mother of God? FYI: I don't accept this Western doctrine and its Augustinian error, but I think you do. Maybe that is why the clergy's request for forgiveness on Forgiveness Sunday is only a 'symbolic' act.

When will the communist-controlled Russian Church give back church property stolen from the Greek Catholics in Eastern Europe during World War II?

When will the Orthodox Church issue condemnations of the Muslims and ask forgiveness for their crimes against Christianity? Let's be fair, Rob. If you can demand so much on a Sister Church, then demand the same on the heathen.

Are you canonical Orthodox? I hear ROCOR is to the Orthodox Church as SSPX is to the Roman Catholic Church. Is this true?


Elias


[This message has been edited by Elias (edited 03-22-2000).]

Salam ya sayid Elias,
I bet you are a funny guy just from the way you phrase things. At any rate, for the Pope to ask for forgiveness I must conclude that it was the Papacy which cast the first stone. History does not lie. History also reveals the fallibility of Orthodox and Roman Catholic bishops. However, Holy Tradition is what differentiates our churches. Orthodoxy does not tamper and distort Apotolic revealed truths but we all know that Rome makes its case very special by becoming the exception. Rome is so special that she has the unique authority to trample down on Holy Tradition defined and understood in Orthodoxy. Rome would come back and say that is not true but we do know the truth about her cover-ups. The problem is quite simply: she has been infected with pride and over time developed a papal mindset alien to Orthodoxy.
In regards to a communist-controlled Russian Church I don't know of any today. I would like to know where I can find one---that would be interesting. You know very well that Catholicism is not welcomed in Russia and that there is no room for two. Whatever happened in the past with the way the communists treated Orthodox and Catholics is a sad and terrible historical affair which Orthodoxy is not to be blamed.
I do not believe that it will be necessary to issue acts of condemnation upon the Muslims unless you want to see a bloodbath. I don't thrive on viewing killings nor would I like to see a religious upheavel occur in my Middle Eastern village. I support the Pope in continuing to ask for forgiveness and to come home to Orthodoxy. That is all.
It would be interesting for you to hear of condemnations against the Muslims and await their reactions.

[This message has been edited by Robert Sweiss (edited 03-22-2000).]

I know both sides will probably pounce on me for saying this, but we need to separate the theological doctrines from the occasional stupidity exhibited through history by priests, bishop, and patriarchs. Sentiments against the sons of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob have never been "officially" assigned a place in the doctrine of the Church, but both Orthodox and Catholic Churches have either stood by dumb or tacitly encouraged pogroms and persecutions at times as it has done for other groups considered on the outside.

I do believe in "love thy neighbor as thyself" but occasionally (more than I'd like to admit) I do lash out in a very un-Christian fashion. It doesn't mean I believe in ripping people or stopped believing in "love thy neighbor." It just means sometimes I'm a blockhead.

If we insist on enumerating all the individual actions that have agrieved the other we'll get nowhere fast. Things have been done on both sides to offend the other. Eventually there does need to be a mutual reproachment where everyone says "sorry for the past, let's move forward." Certainly not repenting for sins is bad, but so is holding onto past offenses. We need to forgive whether forgiveness is asked or not.

"... there does need to be a mutual reproachment where everyone says "sorry for the past, let's move forward." "

I agree. And I can enumerate many more sad events from BOTH sides. As a uniate, I get it from both ends. Yet this post began with the point you just made. The Pope apologized and Mr. Rob expects more. What more Rob would like to see is beyond what asking forgiveness is all about. Rob wants reparations for perceived injustices of the past. I cannot stand responsible for the actions of someone thirty generations ago, but Christ was sacrificed and died for our sins. For us! We are all sinners and it disturbs me when one states that he or she and their church community is without sin. This is a lie. Christ challenged those self-righteous folks by writing their sins in the dirt. The oldest left first. Rob forgets this story as he places heavy demands on the Pope. I sense he failed to listen to the Pope's words.

It is always easier to ask forgiveness but very difficult to forgive.

Thanks for your encouraging words of 'moving forward.' Many can get stuck in the past - still bitching about the sack of Constantinople by Western Christians, the confiscation of Hagia Sophia by the Muslims, and other such things. Can we turn back the clock and erase all the bad events of the past? I don't think so. It is water under the bridge.

My comments and questions about the illegal confiscation of Greek Catholic properties in Eastern Europe by the Orthodox in collaboration with the Communists is still valid. I was wondering if the Orthodox participants on this board would be so kind to suggest a remedy to this painful situation? Is there a need for asking forgiveness here? Is there a need to forgive here?


Elias

I am impressed and in agreement with Bill Mo's post. I would be the first to forgive provided there is sincere repentance and justice for unacknowledged, past sins committed in the name of Christ and His Church. One issue I would like to make clear is on the true belief upheld by Holy Tradition versus sinful believers. Normally one would expect a true believer to live and act according to Holy Tradition. Abnormally, we are hypocrites and first among sinners because we claim to live according to Christ taught in Holy Tradition(Orthodoxy). The hypocrisy is not founded in Holy Tradition but in the absence of sincere, genuine communion with Holy Tradition. Orthodoxy is not founded by the Devil but is given to us by the Holy Spirit. That means the beliefs and actions are one and in accord with Holy Tradition. History is full of recorded shame and dishonor for Holy Tradition by all. Much sin is committed by fellow Orthodox, Catholics, Protestants, etc. The one thing that has not changed or left us since Adam is sin. We continue to struggle with our sins and with the sins of others. My grievance is not about sin but about tampering and ignoring Holy Tradition which is a greater sin. Holy Tradition does not teach sin but to defeat sin. Hence, the process of theosis. I cannot perceive of a harmful,systematic practiced unbelief taught according to the Holy Tradition of Orthodoxy. I can point out the vast amount of injustices committed by bishops and priests that have harmed their own flocks and have disgraced Holy Tradition of Orthodoxy. However this is not the fault of Orthodoxy but the self-centeredness of fallen man. Take the Patriarch Diadorus of Jerusalem and his Brotherhoodlums: they may pray and teach Orthodoxy but are not living Orthodoxy because of the crimes they committ against the Orthodox Church which are many. Keeping this in mind one needs to remember that these sinners are not reflections of the truths in Holy Tradition. Unfortunately, non-Orthodox Christians see this as the fault of Orthodoxy when it is not. I do not defend a heretic or a criminal when his or her actions speak louder than words be they Orthodox or non-Orthodox. There was never a plot conspired by the Orthodox Church to systematically destroy Eastern Catholics. When I say the Orthodox Church I do not mean the Russian Church alone but all the ecumenical Churches of Orthodoxy. Rome has created for herself milestones throughout her unjust history such as Crusades, Inquistions, etc that are not taught,never committed and unfounded in the name of Orthodoxy. Worse is the separation of Rome from Orthodoxy and the consequences that were later to develop over time and history in terms of theology and Holy Tradition. One can quarrel day and night over injustices whether committed by past Popes or corrupt Patriarchs. We all need to find justice from sin by living Holy Tradition rather than speaking of and living sin. As many of you may know the Bible has recorded problems with particular churches that St. Paul had to confront. If a particular church such as Corinths reflected poorly of her Orthodoxy that did not necessarily mean that something is wrong with Orthodoxy which was the accepted norm. The problem stems from sin or the lack of Orthodoxy. Isn't it ironic that Orthodoxy has not had an Eight Ecumencial Council and will not have one without Rome but on the other hand Rome proceeded to have 21 councils and has labeled them ecumenical! Who is showing who respect? This can only mean to be that Rome is under respectful consideration when she decides to enter the Orthodox fold once again. Will that happen any time soon? I don't know and I would venture to say no. It is not because I don't want unity. It is because there is no agreement over what constitutes Orthodoxy for Rome and the issue of Papal supremacy.
I don't think I am asking much when a papal confession is in demand for manipulations of and to Holy Tradition. Right is right and wrong is wrong. Am I right or wrong? May God lead the Pope back to Orthodoxy.

Laudetur Jesus Christus!
Robert is accusing me of asking questions not related to the topic.I'm sorry to say but it seems to me that Robert's anticatholic fewer is slowly darkening his mind. So I will recolect main lines of this topic. Let's start with the first part of the title.
>>The Catholic Church has apologized.<<
Of course Robert is fully entitled not to accept this apologies; even to say that they are founded on hypocrisy. But one thing has to be stated: pope asked forgiveness not for what Catholic Church teaches or what Catholics belive, but for what they have done in the past and in present times also.
Now the other part: >>when will the Orthodox Churches?<<. This was developed by Byzantino in his starting post:
>>My question is when will the Orthodox Churches-specifically the Russian Orthodox Church- apologize for the way it persecuted the Eastern Catholic Churches? Since many of you are already familiar with the history of how Byzantine Catholics were persecuted by the Orthodox Churches, I won't go into details, but is a fact that the Orthodox Churches deliberately at certain times in history(especially during the communist control of Russia and Eastern Europe)persecuted the Byzantine Catholic Church.<<
After launching a lot of anticatholic calumnies, forced by Elias, Robert gave following answer:
>>The communist controlled Russian Orthodox Church was no longer Orthodox. Its actions speak loud and clear for herself. Why should the Churches of Orthodoxy around the world be held responsible that was anti-Christian? If those people were of an Orthodox background but were practicing anti-Christian, do you truly believe that this is the truth that Orthodoxy promotes? Certainly not! We are all equals before the throne of God, unworthy servants. Is Orthodoxy found in sinful actions? Absolutely not!<<
Surely nor I, nor Byzantino, nor Elias blame orthodox faith of promoting persecutions. Byzantino asked apologies not for what Orthodox Churches teach but for what they have done, and I appreciat that You condemned atrocities commited against eastern Catholics as anti-Christian.
For the status of Russian Church under soviet regime, which you declared as not being orthodox, I asked you question, not answerd by you until now:
>>Did any of the autocephalous, orthodox Churches, Your Antiochene Patriarchate including, break community with ROC between 1944 and 1991?<<
Of course this is rhetorical question, because based on the facts answer is "NOT".
So, if you and all canonical Orthodox Churches were in ecllesiastical communion with Church commiting anti-Christian crimes, which speak loud and clear for themselvs, are you not guilty of grave sin? And since these persecutions were directed against neigbours, also in very literally meaning, shoudn't the sinners ask forgiveness?
In Christ,
piotr c

Robert's post and others make me sick.

I want to know when we're all going to do the Christian thing and forgive. For most of us, our grandparents weren't even born when supposed atrocities occured let alone anything personally happening to us. Give it up. Let it go. By holding on to it, we're mostly hurting ourselves. I doubt if Mother Teresa of Calcutta or Mother Maria Skobtsova had enough time to hate or to be bitter. They were too busy living the gospel.

Moronikus,

My relatives had their church taken away when they were made Orthodox. The Soviet police assisted the Moscow Patriarchate in taking the properties where the Cathedral of St. George stood. The Russian government held a puppet Church council of priests (quickly ordained bishops) in 1946 at the L'viv Cathedral to accept Orthodoxy and liquidate the Greek Catholic Church. The 'real' Greek Catholic bishops were all in prison.

Can we brush all of this aside, Moronikus? With forgiveness comes metanoia. Will the Orthodox recognize their collaboration with the Communists and hand over these properties which rightfully belonged to Greek Catholics?

Rob implies that those souls in Orthodoxy are without blemish - more immaculate than the Theotokos. Yet how many Greek Catholic bishops were murdered, poisoned, and suffered in the Gulags of the former Soviet empire for the faith because, unlike many Orthodox bishops, they refused to cooperate with the enemy, the Liar of Lies.

Where did the 2,000 parishes in Western Ukraine and Transcarpathia go? To the Orthodox. When Dubcek allowed the Greek Catholic Church to surface, the Russian Patriarch was angered. In cooperation with the patriarch the Soviet government began persecuting the Church again.

My family lived through this while remaining Greek Catholic. It is harsh words to hear the Greek Patriarch suggest a "Final Solution" to our uniate Church. Is this Christian? Should we ignore this attitude? Many in Orthodoxy have already tried in collaboration with the Communists to liquidate our church. Some still suggest we just walk away from it. How would you like them for neighbors?

It is one thing to ask forgiveness for things done or said in the past. It is another thing to simply ignore present injustices.


Elias

Dear piotrc,
I feel that you are reading right through my posts which may be the fault of your ignorance and what you want to believe. I repeat again that I am not anti-Catholic. I am anti-Catholicism for breeding lies and exagerations and atrocities. I am also against those who portray Orthodoxy in a negative fashion and accuse the Orthodox Church of the devils work. It is much easier for some to believe the devil than the truth of Christ embedded in His Orthodox Church. I am against the evil forces practiced by those who said they were Orthodox when in fact there is nothing Orthodox about them but a baptismal certificate. Atrocities committed by The Catholic Church were sanctioned by it. As for the Orthodox Churches there is no such actions. There was not any collective effort by the Orthodox Churches to committ crimes, acts of persecutions, and justify killings in comparison to Rome's teachings of "Just War." I cannot speak or even defend the heinious crimes committed by the Church of the KGB, the church of the devil. One thing that was ignored was the pain and suffering that Russian Orthodox had undergone. Why do you purposely ignore mention of the 20 million Orthodox martyrs and the destruction of their churches? Are the Eastern Catholics the only people on earth to have suffered and lost much of their possessions? Your posts of questions remind of a Zionist Jew who keeps screaming anti-Semitism and ignores the millions of non-Jews that lost their lives and possessions. I do not know specifically the facts rgarding the relationship of the Antiochian Patriarch and the ROC between 1944 and 1991. It is an interesting question that I will look into. My Patriarchy is that of Jerusalem but currently it is under siege by a corrupt Greek hierarchy. Does this mean Orthodoxy is the source of this corruption? If you really studied Orthodoxy you would not speak the language you posted. Was the corupt Church of Corinths the fault of the Church of the Apostles? No, not anymore than the corruption of the KGB Church or the Jerusalem Church. Your unusual mindset has labeled me at fault for situations that I have no control over. You have the audacity to accuse of me of your doctrine of "original guilt". I think you better sit down with someone knowledgeable before you try to take another wack at me or anyone else and have them educate you on Orthodoxy in depth.

Rob,


�I feel that you are reading right through my posts which may be the fault of your ignorance and what you want to believe. I repeat again that I am not anti-Catholic. I am anti-Catholicism for breeding lies and exagerations and atrocities.�

Elias: Then give us an example of not reading right through posts and answer my questions. You have ignored them quite well.


�I am also against those who portray Orthodoxy in a negative fashion and accuse the Orthodox Church of the devils work.�

Elias: What about those who portray Catholicism, especially Roman Catholicism, in a negative fashion?


�Atrocities committed by The Catholic Church were sanctioned by it.�

Elias: As much as the atrocities of the communist-infested Russian Orthodox Church.


�As for the Orthodox Churches there is no such actions. There was not any collective effort by the Orthodox Churches to committ crimes, acts of persecutions, and justify killings in comparison to Rome's teachings of "Just War."�

Elias: They just collaborated with the Soviets in taking illegal possession of Greek Catholic Churches. Let�s not forget how the Eastern Church was able to force Orthodox teaching by the might of the Empire. This was called the Symphony of Church and State. When the Eastern Church doesn�t have a State to back them up they become peaceful and even Christian. But watch out when a State government begins to use them like in Russia where no other Churches are going to be allowed. If some churches aren�t being martyred for their faith, there are other Churches using the State to martyr others. It goes both ways, Rob.


�I cannot speak or even defend the heinious crimes committed by the Church of the KGB, the church of the devil. One thing that was ignored was the pain and suffering that Russian Orthodox had undergone. Why do you purposely ignore mention of the 20 million Orthodox martyrs and the destruction of their churches? Are the Eastern Catholics the only people on earth to have suffered and lost much of their possessions?�

Elias: So you DO admit that the Eastern Catholics were martyred too! Many tend to ignore the martyrs in the Roman Catholic Church too. Why do you call it the Church of the KGB? It was the Orthodox Church which called upon the Soviets to help them take Eastern Catholic Churches during WWII by holding mock synods to �officially� re-establish communion with the Moscow Patriarch and to �officially� liquidate the Greek Catholic Church. The KGB was not a church, but the Russian Orthodox Church was.


�My Patriarchy is that of Jerusalem but currently it is under siege by a corrupt Greek hierarchy. Does this mean Orthodoxy is the source of this corruption? If you really studied Orthodoxy you would not speak the language you posted. Was the corupt Church of Corinths the fault of the Church of the Apostles? No, not anymore than the corruption of the KGB Church or the Jerusalem Church.�

Elias: And this was the point I was trying to make. Was the corrupt Church of Rome the fault of the Church of Peter? You want to throw out the baby with the bathwater in the case of Rome�s corruptions, but remind us of the 20 million Orthodox martyrs. You want it one way. You want more than forgiveness for the sins of Roman Catholics. Maybe another crucifixion to take away the sins? Have you ever noticed that EVERY church is corrupt? This is because the wages of sin is death and corruption. We have to learn to live with it, Rob. We can�t become some esoteric Amish-type Orthodox Church hiding from OTHER people�s sins. We have to have faith that Christ conquered death by his death. Resorting to some Docetist Ecclesiology is escape-ism. The bathwater will always be dirty.


�Your unusual mindset has labeled me at fault for situations that I have no control over. You have the audacity to accuse of me of your doctrine of "original guilt". I think you better sit down with someone knowledgeable before you try to take another wack at me or anyone else and have them educate you on Orthodoxy in depth.�

Elias: Did Pope John Paul II have control over what happened at the Spanish Inquisition? Were Orthodox Christians (mostly Greek Catholic) around the turn of the 20th century liable for Slavery before the Civil War? Yet you want MORE from the Pope than his asking for forgiveness.

Elias



[This message has been edited by Elias (edited 03-24-2000).]

Dear Elias,
No one is immune from sin. The past and present history of Rome contains theological, ecclessialogical, liturgical violations that oppose Holy Tradition. We can speak about martyrs from the Roman & Eastern Catholics as well as the Orthodox. I don't believe anyone takes pride and joy in the killings of people despite what religious affilation they may be. My entire argumentation dealt with mainly the violations by Rome against Orthodox Holy Tradition. Rome has changed much that one wonders if she is the Church of the Apostles. We do know she was at one point and she needs to return home. Enough messing around and return home to the Father's house. The one issue I would like to see resolved is Rome's return to Orthodoxy. As for the reply you raised about the atrocities of the communist-infested Russian Orthodox Church name all the Orthodox Churches that collaberated with the Soviets? As for Rome, when she speaks and does something out of line she speaks for all of her churches. This is not the case with universal Churches of Orthodoxy. As you may know our Orthodox Churches are of a conciliar nature unlike the papacy. The papal monarchy does not work in Orthodoxy. If you know that the "communist-infested Russian Orthodox Church" was possessed and occupied by an evil spirit what makes it Christian or Orthodox? Is it its structure? Or is it its function? Or is it its structure without the Christian function? You know very well there was nothing Orthodox about what the communist did but instead you insisted that this is the fault of all the Orthodox Churches,the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. These uniate churches were at one time Orthodox until Rome came from the back door and stole them away. I am not condoning what the KGB church did and it was wrong as it was wrong for the uniates to break with the Orthodox Church. Your statement about me wanting "more than forgiveness for the sins of Roman Catholics" does not coincide with my understanding. The Papacy needs to confess that it abandon Holy Tradition and Orthodoxy in general. I do expect from Rome, the Vatican, the papacy to apologize to her Orthodox bretherns for leaving the fold as the prodigal son. I pray that she may return to her proper senses and come back to Orthodoxy as if she was returning to her Father's house. This act of confession is what is needed for the reconcilation process to take place. It does not make any sense to argue who committed more sin. It would make more sense to begin the reconcilation process and to attain the fullness of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church as understood in Orthodoxy.
I don't believe that my request of the Pope in furthering the reconcilation process is much to ask for. It sounds like you're saying, "Okay he's said he was sorry and thats all he needs to say or do." I don't believe the process ends there but begins there. It must be taken further in depth because time as alienated the churches. Eccleseastical, theological and liturgical issues must be resolved. What that means is a return to Holy Tradition. My vision is to the Kingdom of God on earth when when become one. The Pope has the most responsibility, being once "first amongst equals," to make the return to Orthodoxy. How soon will that happen? My guess is that this will not happen overnight.

I think the main problems here are that Robert is applying different standards to the two Churches, that he considers the "movement of the Catholic Church away from Orthodoxy" to be something for which the Catholic Church needs to apologize, and that he is not clear on Catholic history or on the apology rendered by the Pope.

First of all, Robert separates any organization which committed a crime from the Orthodox Church. Thus he says it was not the Russian Orthodox Church which did this or that, it was the KGB church in disguise as the ROC. The Pope, as I understand it, was asking forgiveness for wrongs committed by representatives of the Church or in the name of the Church, thus taking that much responsibility for wrongs which may have been committed without the awareness, much less approval of, the Church. Robert does not give the kind of leeway to the Catholic Church as he does to the Orthodox Church.

Secondly, what Robert thinks of the Catholic Church is what Catholics think about the Orthodox Church, except that the Catholic attitude tends to be sorrow at the Schism rather than anger towards the Orthodox. Robert's attitude is that the Catholics need to simply convert to Orthodox; the Pope's attitude is a dialog between the two Churches. (Even if we were to take what Robert says as true, how would this conversion of the Catholic Church take place without any dialog between the Churches? Refusal to dialog seems to indicate something other than a simple belief in one's own correctness.)

Finally, Robert seems to think that the Crusades were a sinful undertaking, but I would remind him that had they not been undertaken, the Moslems would still have complete control over the Holy Lands, probably Europe, and who knows where they would have stopped? What does Robert recommend? That we simply allow bullies to overrun us willy-nilly whenever they so desire? And the Inquisition was 1. greatly exaggerated by the Protestants and 2. necessary to weed out heretical teachings, espionage, and treason.

PS. I have not figured out why Robert equates the Catholic understanding of the Eucharist with the Protestant understanding of communion, given that for most Protestants, there is no similarity at all (they do not believe in the True Presence), or little (they believe that Christ is present in a limited way). Only the Orthodox and Catholics have a common view of the Eucharist.