www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West The Catholic Church has apologized, when will the Orthodox Churches?

Friends in Christ,

Apologies are good. Forgiveness is good. Yet a very great question remains and Soulsearcher will not let it be forgotten. Neither should any of us. The Jews must struggle with the question: "Why did God allow us to be butchered?" All Christians must struggle with the question: "Why did Christians butcher?"

If we have never struggled with that before today is a very good day to do so.

A sinner,
Dan Lauffer

Reverend:1- Another important question: Why did God allow 13 million Ukrainians to die? 2-The pure and undefiled church does not exist; it is only a theological concept with no grounding in earth-centered reality. Therefore,I reject such a concept. Historically, Holy Mother Church wears a skirt that is drenched in blood. My personal library is heavy with texts that record this fact...in case anyone missed that..."record the fact".... that not only did Holy Mother Church teach her children that murder was permissible against a whole variety of heretics and infidels, but it was a holy duty. The Church was consistent:She taught murder and practiced murder,even Popes! What is a Crusade but butchery! It isn't a bingo game. Come down to earth and face the harsh reality that the Church has often taught that "evil is good and good is evil." This is a fact! No amount of hypothetical nonsense to the contrary can obviate that fact! I know I speak for other Jewish Catholics, Greek and Latin,(all three of us!) when I say that the first word spoken for Holy Mother Church must be spoken against her. We must become adults and take responsibility for the past: the good and the evil. We act and think like moral dwarfs. Enough of that! The Pope is too glib. These are profound and very deep moral issues that must be approached in a serious manner worthy of their importance: Papal theatrics and public displays are not enough.A glib: "Gee, we're sorry, but the Church is untainted," is a diabolical display of insensitivity and moral ineptitude. No one can convince me that God could be that irresponsible. Philothea: I can't forgive another for the sins they have inflicted on others. I can't absolve a Ukrainian SS guard of the murderous sin of injecting a 5 yr. old Jewish child with carbolic acid after rapeing her: The list of atrocities reaches to eternity. But that is a "real world" example. (Hello...is anyone awake out there?) Your concept of the Church is too, far too abstract, for me to adhere to . By abstracting he Church to the high heavens, you essentially
remove her from moral responsibility. I will never accept this concept even if it is the official teaching of the Church: I can't be that morally schizophrenic. (Before I forget: Have you ever heard of the St. Bartholomew's Day massacre in France of the Calvinists. The pope of that day, when hearing the news, was overjoyed and ordered special services in the parishes of Rome. What a good example to the faithful! (Please spare me the "morality is relative to the age" argument. Are the Ten Commandments "relative to the age." No! They are apodictic truths.) .....And Holy Mother Church, Her skirts drenched in blood preaches that "good is evil and evil is good." Kyrie eleison!

[This message has been edited by soulsearcher (edited 04-21-2000).]

Dear Soulsearcher,
You bring a very serious topic to the forum.
My people( the Arabs) were killed in the crusades, but i don't believe any sin belongs to the Church. The Church is a Whole made up of individual men infected with fallen nature. When a crime or sin is commited, that sin belongs to he(or she) who commited it. When i commit a sin it is not "the Church" who has sinned, but me and me alone. Even if large numbers of Catholics commited a great sin, that sin still belongs only to those who commited it or approved of it. The Church cannot be an agent of evil, but men in the Church can.

"Why did God allow 13 million Ukrainians to die?"
The same question is, why does God allow evil? a Mystery, something we cannot fully grasp here. We must remember that God has given us Free Will, Men can't blame on God the evil they choose.
I don't believe the Popes apology can be seen as theatric or glib.
Lets not allow the Church to become the scapegoat for the crimes of men in the Church. Thats the way i see it. Peace of Christ to you and to all.

In Christ Jesus,
Khaled

[This message has been edited by Khaled (edited 04-21-2000).]

Dear Brother Kahled: If Isaac can disagree with Ishmael,I must disagree. A whole is always the sum of its parts. It isn't a void, self-existent. Therefore, I must assume that the Church(The Whole) must also be a sum of its parts. If the parts(the people of God) are "good" then the Whole(The Church) will be "good." If the parts(the people of God) are "evil" then the Whole(The Church) will be "evil," if the parts(the people of God are a combination thereof) then the Whole(The Church) is also a "combination thereof." All I am saying is that the Church is not just an abstract idea floating around in Plato's fantasy world of pure and undefiled archetypes. "The All is in One and the One is in All." The Church is also the free moral agent whose freedom is the sum of the actions of the people of God. You are a blood kinsman-a fellow Semite-and our unique gift to Holy Mother Church, the True Catholic Apostolic Church united under the Successors of St. Peter, is the practical approach to faith and holiness: Catholicism must be lived in the now, in this world, in real concrete ways that serve our neighbors. I refuse to believe that Catholicism is an exercise in abstractions. The mysterion(sacraments) are not abstractions, but REAL(excuse me for screaming)gifts of grace in material form-not ideas! Our ideas about the church must transcend rhetoric: Catholicism must be loved by living it; living it begins with how we treat our neighbors and.....our enemies. I mentioned the Ukrainians because many Christian always assume six million Jews died during the Holocaust because of The Holy One's curse for rejecting Yeshua Ha'Meshiach. If that is true,who did the hapless Ukrainians reject? It is a point I raise to help people think. To do what Jews love to do: Ask hard questions. A blessed Pascha to you, dear blood kinsman. Christ is Melech!

Dear Khaled,
I believe you are in denial since the Catholic Church was responsible for the Crusades and many other atrocities yet to be named. I would like to believe that the Roman Catholic Church is the Church in Christ that did not commit such crimes. Also I would like to believe that the Popes were infallibile. However, the fact of the matter is the Catholic Church did commit crimes knowingly and I suppose unknowingly and that the Popes were fallibile. Would you care to start a new topic on why would the Popes and the Roman Catholic Church be fallibile? Many Roman polemicists defend and deny any wrongdoings by Popes or their church. Why cant they just tell the truth as it is without the exagerations and coverups? Try this food for thought.

Mr. Schweiss: The Catholic Church has been the great enemy of the Jewish people for the greater part of the last two millenia:Early church councils passing laws against the practice of the Jewish religion in certain parts of Europe; the expulsion of the Jews from Spain/Portugal;various Inguisitions; church-led pogroms in Poland and Ukraine; and a general poisoning of the minds of Catholics by a constant reference (by popes, bishops, and others) to Jews as Christ-killers, etc. The Russians were also notorious anti-semites and, to a degree, still are. But other Orthodox countries, especially the very civilized and intelligent Greeks, have been comparatively Jew friendly. With your extensive knowledge of Orthodoxy would you like to venture why?

Dear Robert,
Hello,i must admit i do like talking to you here at BFO. Firstly, YES, there have been Popes, bishops,priests, and lay Catholics who have commited great sins. No one in their right mind could deny this. However, It seems that you misunderstand the doctrine of Papal infallibilty. The Pope is only infallible when speaking Ex Cathedra, and this is restricted to pronouncements of Faith or Morality ONLY. So indeed the Pope can and does sin, as have the Popes through out history. Again i would make the distinction between "the Church" and "Men in the Church" For example: is the whole Orthodox church guilty for the Crime of the saking of Latin Churches in Constantinople, then taking the Blessed Sacrament from the Latin Churches and throwing it in the street? No of course not. Only those men who commited that sin, and those who approved of it are guilty.
In Christ Jesus,
Khaled

Dear Khaled,
Ex cathedra means from the throne or chair
of St. Peter. I know from history the number of Popes who spoke from their chairs that caused much chaos. Where on earth is the faith or morality with most of the corrupted Popes in history? Is this the saying of "Do as I say and not what I do" approach? The devil can stand on a throne and proclaim that he is Christ. Who on earth proclaimed the Pope to be infallible other than himself in 1870? This is a foreign teaching not to be found in the Early Church. Polemicists often refer to certain Church Fathers by manipulating their words to validate a proposterous teaching such as the Infallibility. Why aren't the Byzantine Catholics obliged to believe this doctrine? Ask them. Some may and some may not. The truth is that it is a distortion of the role of a bishop who desires ecclesiastical control. It is a one-man show who can do things alone such as having 21 so-called Ecumenical Councils. That has been the problem with Rome: doing things alone without the proper guidance that have led to much historic problems. The proper guidance that should have been done in conjunction with the Orthodox Patriarchs and without the thought of Supremacy which has led her off the straight path.

Dear Soulseacher,
The name is spelled S W E I S S. I have studied the problems that have haunted the Jews for quite a long time. The Jews in Europe had suffered much in comparison to life in the Middle East and during Islamic periods. Today I don't know of any civilized people or nations because all are corrupt. In regards to "the intelligent Greeks" being Jew friendly I don't know. I can only speculate that perhaps it is not in the Greek psyche to wage violence against another people as war has been waged against them by Muslim Turks. The Greeks have had their lands occupied and their populations were transferred. Perhaps they suffered oppression as much as the Jews and could relate as to why. Maybe you have a better answer than I do.

I believe many sincere Catholics adhere to your definition of the Church: A nebulous charade completely cut off from reality and absolved of any moral culpability; the "mommy that can do no wrong." I know that I am spinning my wheels trying to prove the point but, as I flee this Sodom and Gomorah lunatic asylum known as the Catholic Church, I ask all Catholics to become adults and refrain from an immature attachment to the church that even a five year old would be mature enough to reject. Grow up!

Dear soulsearcher,
Who is being absolved of moral culpability? Those who commit the sin are those who are guilty of the sin. Perhaps there is only a linguistic difference between us.Again i can't see "the church" a whole being guilty of the sin of individual members. I'm a very small part of the church, and when a catholic in germany sins, that sin is his not mine. Sin is only commited by persons,and their personal guilt is NOT a communally shared thing. The Church does not teach that her individual members cannot be evil. The way i see it is, if i take your theory all sin is communal and shared, even by people who are innocent. Correct me if i misunderstand your point. Grow Up?
In Christ Jesus,
Khaled

If you say to me: "All the members of the Hadad family are evil, but the family itself is good, pure, and undefiled." And I respond to you: "Pasha Khaled, you're nuts!", would you be surprised? But this is what some Catholics seem to do-against the facts! The state doesn't have such a delusionary understanding of the Church. Ask any bishop whose diocese has been sued because of the actions of a child-molesting priest. The institution, which supposedly is pure and above all taint of sin, is held morally-legally culpable by the state.Since child molestation is a sin, the Church is in this case considered a "sinner." Shocking, isn't it! Holy Mother Church in dirty linen!
Holy Mother Church....A Sinner! About communal sin: Adam and Eve and their descendents and original sin...I wonder? Touche' on the "grow up" hyperbole. Someday I hope we will be able to admit that the Church is inherently, by its very nature a sinning sinner, and not an abstraction ontologically divine and therefore incapable of error or acts of evil that originate from its very nature:its moral ying and yang if you will. You can't always trust the teaching authority of the Church because that authority can err diabolically with terrible consequences. That makes me a heretic.

Wowwwie!!!! What a pissing match this string is!!

I thought that it was bad over at the Une Fides forum when the Fundamentalists and Jack Chick maniacs would come in and start to throw around all their pejoratives. That pales in comparison to this.

Unity? Huh! Not in my lifetime! Not if Robert is representative of Orthodoxy. And he isn't even HOCNA, who are so fundamentalist that they consider other Orthodox to be heretics. Some pitch for unity.

I don't know one tenth of the history you folks do and perhaps I really don't want to if all it is used for is a convenient club with which to bash others over the head. My search has been for Truth. I have found it in the Eucharist as opposed to the "Real Absence" of Protestantism. I have found it in the documents of the Early Fathers rather than in the heretical ravings of Calvin and Luther. This is a shared glory between East and West, but rather than joy in that glory, you are too busy picking fights over what amounts to essentially nothing or remembering old wounds like the Hatfields and the McCoys.

Robert, why don't you go tell St. Augustine that the office of the papacy is a farce? Or St. Ignatius? Or St. Jerome? Or any of the Fathers? I don't think you would get much of a hearing from them, based on what I have read of their writings. You are acting just like some of the Protestant bigots who keep badgering me about my soon to be conversion to full union with the Church -- all they can do is trash the Church, talk about all the whoremonger popes and pedophile priests, etc. I told my best friend the other day to knock it off when he started that routine. Either talk doctrine or don't talk to me, I warned him. I would say the same about everything I have read here. But rather than talk about doctrine with the idea of unity, all I see is continuing vilification, pejorative, etc.

I suppose it is great fun and certain wonderful for the old ego, but I leave tonight shaking my head in sorrow.

Guys, one day you are going to wake up and realize that the real enemy to Christ's true doctrines are those idiot Protestants who don't have an exegetical clue and who continue to deceive multitudes with their dog-and-pony show routine they misnomer as worship?

Perhaps then we might see the hatchets buried, the old wounds forgotten, the forgiveness of Christ extended, and the unity our Lord prayed for.

Sad. Real, real sad.

Defensor Fides (aka TruthSeeker)

Dear Soulsearcher,
I can see this discussion leading to a whole entirely new topic about the nature of sin and why it happens and who is and isn't immune from it. Perhaps, you or I can start a new topic on the creation of sin. One thing is for certain: no human being is immune from sin and will die because the wages of sin is death. This is the ultimate destiny of our human existence on the earth. Before we can exit this human reality through death I would hope and pray to have contributed in a positive manner on other peoples lives. To live the life as Christ called us to live. All this arguing on this forum will not lead us out of our human deplorable condition and state of sin. One's religious affiliation can be irrelevant in the face and state of sin if one does not seek the truth and sincerely focus on their own theosis. I, for one, like to engage non-Orthodox in any type of discussion by which we can find common grounds. In this forum, I see and agree as well as disagree on the views about Orthodoxy and Catholicism. There are, I am sure, many honest people such as the Catholics who can speak the truth of past historical sins and atrocities. There are also Catholics who do not know their history and become all too defensive as well as polemical in order to safeguard their faith and Pope. Either way, mankind has painfully suffered by its own hand rather seeking the Hand of God. I have seen wickedness from every people regardless of their religious affiliations. According to Orthodoxy, Christ was the only sin-free being who established and gathered His Church, His Body, and the "ground and pillar of Truth" to unite us miserable, deplorable and unworthy sinners by restoring our original humanity(theosis). This is easily said than done because of our fallen state. The Orthodox Church has many spiritual remedies and tools to help us fight and to endure through this state of fall.
I would like to encourage you to view the Fall of mankind through an Orthodox mindset. The Roman Catholic view is quite different and unfortunately not reconcilable with Orthodoxy. I can only guess that the Byzantine Catholics can have either options as acceptable. But I would feel compelled very strongly to refute Catholicism's view of The FAll if I am asked why I don't accept its validity. This topic began with someone's curiosity as to "when will the Orthodox Churches" apologize to which I have to say they don't know what they are talking about. The Catholic Church needs to continue in her path of confessions and apologies rather than demand it from her victims such as the Orthodox Church and the Jews for example. The visit of the Pope to the Middle East is at least a good gesture for reconciliation with whom the Catholic Church has persecuted whether by words or deeds. As for the Orthodox Church she has been persecuted by both words and deeds by the Catholic Church. There has never been an Orthodox conspiracy to take over Rome or do what Rome has done so poorly with non-Roman Catholics. When the bishop of Rome(Pope) speaks he represents all of his churches. When an Orthodox bishop(Patriarch) speaks he speaks for his church's jurisdiction. When all the Orthodox Patriarchs speak and agree together they speak for all their churches combined together. This would be consider the Ecumenical Church in Christ. Unfortunately, Rome is no longer part of this Ecumenical Church because she believes she is the Ecumenical Church alone. What happens when you do things alone? Either you succeed or you fail to succeed. I don't have to say where Rome is at since she is not where she should be. Rome needs to be helped and brought back to the unity of the Ecumenical Church. I think 1 Corinthians 12 would basically summarize the beliefs about how the Orthodox Church views herself in relation to her members. According to 1 Cor. 12:25 "there should be no schism in the body(Church)". If there was a schism in the Body of Christ then there would be no Orthodox Church. Since Rome separated and left we in the Orthodox Church will not offer a Roman or Byzantine Catholic the Eucharist. This is unfortunate for them. The Orthodox Church is not only a gathering for sinners and the righteous but to expose the Kingdom of God on earth. There is nothing inherently evil about mankind or the Church. Both live and are exposed in and to the condition of our fallen universe. The meaning of the word 'church' means to assemble or gather'. Therefore Christ came to gather us fallen people and to reconcile and to restore our humanity. This is the perfection we strive for everyday of our lives. This perfection must be prayed for by asking Christ and all the Saints to intercede for us. We go to Church in order to aid us in our journey into Christ. Our journey is flying by day and night. When will we come to our senses and begin having the mind of Christ? Life is too short and we need the power from above to save us from furthering the calamities of the past. The world views we hold today which may seem to be the truth may not be the truth as we endure in our personal quest of theosis. Take me for example. I was baptized Orthodox, grew up and raised Roman Catholic, became agnostic, returned to Orthodoxy and I am forever working on overturning my imperfections or I should say working on my theosis. At any rate, I am sure the writing here is most likely of my imperfections. It is difficult to express the fullness of my faith in clear and concise wording due to the state of sin I live in. May God lead us to the straight path only found in His Logos.

Dear Brother Ed,
I am not a bishop or any special person that soley represents Orthodoxy. You truly need to study Christian history from both the Western and Eastern angles. How on earth did you find the Truth in the Eucharist when you are not a member of either the Catholic or Orthodox Church? Are you a catechumen? At any rate, if Blessed Augustine was still alive today he would deny that the Papacy was Roman Catholic. If all the Early Church Fathers would resurrect from the dead today they certainly would not recognize the Papacy for what she stands for. You have attained an improper and skewed understanding
of the role of the Papacy versus the legitimate role of the Primacy. Be careful of Roman polemics and manipulation of Patristic theology.
Please refrain on labeling a group of people idiots because there are idiots everywhere. I know of many sincere and knowledgeable Protestants that would not appreciate the name-calling. Remember: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Many sincere and loving Orthodox have come from a Protestant background. I certainly have not "trashed" anyone or church but have discussed the true issues that affect unity that need to be resolved. The Byzantines knowlingly have forfeited Orthodoxy for the sake of unity with Rome. Please note that the creation of the Uniate Churches was done in spite of the Orthodox churches. Rome hoped at one time that she would subjucate the Orthodox Church under her authority but that has never happened and never will. Food for thought: what is the reasoning for a redefinition of the meaning of the Papacy by involving the Orthodox Church? Why now and not before? The current meaning of Papacy is but arrogancy. I pray that does change with the involvement of the Orthodox Church and for Rome's return. "Let us pray to the Lord. Lord have mercy."

In Christ,
Robert Sweiss

To all:

Now you know why the East looks upon the human condition as a 'sickness.' We are all sick! We murder our unborn children, we fight wars over fossils, we try to break up companies when our own government has many monopolies, we do drugs and alcohol, we do very harmful things to OURSELVES, we evangelize with swords, we practice polemics and not the love of Christ, ...

and we wonder why their is schism in the church. We are all schismatics! We are all sinners. None of us can remain standing by the harlot and cast the first stone.

All of this because the Pope asked forgiveness! I can see the anger if he asked for another Crusade to crush Islam or the Orthodox Church, but anger because he asked forgiveness?

I WOULD NEVER GO TO SOME OF YOU FOR CONFESSION OF MY SINS. YOU MIGHT KILL ME.

You are a bunch of sickies. Go and get healed! You really need it. Now I know why many Orthodox Christians found it easy to embrace Islam (in those places where the sword wasn't used). You people make me sick. No wonder why our youth detest religion; we have such bad examples of militant religio-nuts. Out to die for any cause but the one our Lord died for. There is not forgiveness in your heart because you rely totally on your own power and not God's power to heal and forgive. The medical profession sometimes has better bedside manners than you pompous religious bigots. This all is the sickness of religion, not the cure.


Elias




[This message has been edited by Elias (edited 04-24-2000).]