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Christ is Risen!

Robert S. sound a lot like the "Feenyists" the followers of Fr. Leonard Feeney who professed a very narrow view of the teaching "outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation."

Pado

>>Here we go again with this "personal opinion" issue. As long as you remain a Byzantine CAtholic you will always be known as a Uniate.<<

All of what you post is your personal opinion since it is usually backed up with nothing. Does it not arouse your curiosity that Orthodoxy (the Church, not you) generally avoids using terms which others find offensive? Of course I see your logic. As long as black people remain black they will always be known as 'niggers'. You are at least consistent.

When followers of the Holy Club in eighteenth century England were chided for following a Method to obtain a holy life they were called Methodists. It soon became a badge of honor. I happily convert to what is perjoratively called a "uniate" church. Suffering for Christ's sake is no dishonor and we are in obedience to Christ's high priestly prayer in John 17. When His prayer for unity is fulfilled and we cease to exist I will continue to praise the Lord for using us "uniates" to bring Him glory and the people of God much good.

Dan Lauffer

RS-Marriage is higher than the priesthood. Many years of joy mixed with the sorrows of life will make you wiser than you are now...which will make you very wise! I remember Bernstein; better Orthodox than evangelical. I can't see how any Jew who decides to accept the Nazarene as messiah could ever choose evangeical Christianity;it is intellectually insipid. At least with Orthodoxy they serve you a feast resplendent with brain food and Orthodoxy is very hospitable in the process: plenty for all to enjoy to their hearts' desires. Alas, in my case, I am more at peace with the Jesus of Tolstoy or Schweitzer than St. John Chrysostom or Aquinas. It is almost impossible to herd cats and Jews are more cat-like than sheep-like,therefore,a pope's or patriarch's nightmare. Although we often gather together as a "herd" to protect ourselves we do not "think like a herd." There is a variety of belief and unelief within Jewry that would drive a totalitarian,whether religious or secular, to the brink of insanity. That is probably why the popes, or at least the agents of the popes, had such a pathological-homicidal hatred for us and why they drove us from beautiful Spain after being there for over 1300 yrs; but the Sephardim, whether they settled in North Africa,the Balkans,Greece,Turkey etc., retained their Ladino-Judezo Spanish dialect and many other elements of Spanish culture. Jews are like "energy": you can't destroy them, you just re-arrange them. As far as being Greek and Jew: when I was young, I was more Greek than Jew until I was given a fictional account of the life of King David and I read the Diary of Ann Frank (I can barely think of her without getting a lump in my throat). That is where the big change began. Although I have a Greek last name, Kyriakos, I hardly think of being Greek. I talk too much. As it says in the Spanish-Jewish liturgical hymn I inserted in the previous post:"The voice of my beloved calls 'Open for me, my beloved, the doors of Sion, that I love.'" Happy Life!

RS-Marriage is higher than the priesthood. Many years of joy mixed with the sorrows of life will make you wiser than you are now...which will make you very wise! I remember Bernstein; better Orthodox than evangelical. I can't see how any Jew who decides to accept the Nazarene as messiah could ever choose evangeical Christianity;it is intellectually insipid. At least with Orthodoxy they serve you a feast resplendent with brain food and Orthodoxy is very hospitable in the process: plenty for all to enjoy to their hearts' desires. Alas, in my case, I am more at peace with the Jesus of Tolstoy or Schweitzer than St. John Chrysostom or Aquinas. It is almost impossible to herd cats and Jews are more cat-like than sheep-like,therefore,a pope's or patriarch's nightmare. Although we often gather together as a "herd" to protect ourselves we do not "think like a herd." There is a variety of belief and unelief within Jewry that would drive a totalitarian,whether religious or secular, to the brink of insanity. That is probably why the popes, or at least the agents of the popes, had such a pathological-homicidal hatred for us and why they drove us from beautiful Spain after being there for over 1300 yrs; but the Sephardim, whether they settled in North Africa,the Balkans,Greece,Turkey etc., retained their Ladino-Judezo Spanish dialect and many other elements of Spanish culture. Jews are like "energy": you can't destroy them, you just re-arrange them. As far as being Greek and Jew: when I was young, I was more Greek than Jew until I was given a fictional account of the life of King David and I read the Diary of Ann Frank (I can barely think of her without getting a lump in my throat). That is where the big change began. Although I have a Greek last name, Kyriakos, I hardly think of being Greek. I talk too much. As it says in the Spanish-Jewish liturgical hymn I inserted in the previous post:"The voice of my beloved calls 'Open for me, my beloved, the doors of Sion, that I love.'" Happy Life!

It's getting very bizarre in here - perhaps this thread should be closed. I no longer understand much of the stuff being thrown around - but I'm not sure I really want to.

But then, I'm one of those feline Jews, as well as being Uniate scum (I'm fat and female, too!) so I'm probably going to Hell in a bagel bag anyway.

Cheers (or something like it),

Sharon

Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

Actually, 'Uniate' can be an affectionate and charitable term. For instance, it can refer to those Orthodox Christians who desire "union" as opposed to those who wish not to fulfill Our Lord's prayer that we all be one. One may be proud to call himself/herself Orthodox, but surely not Christian.

Even the Impressionists adopted the term 'impressionist' which originally was meant to be derogatory. Now, their paintings are PRICELESS! - just like the union Eastern Christians enjoy while being in communion with Rome. We are the Monet's of Orthodoxy, and not of the old Parisian school.

Elias, uniate

I can't speak to the Jewish issue but, it is an historical fact that the Roman-rite of the Catholic Church is responsible, over the centuries, for the deaths of millions of Jews,Muslims,Protestants,Orthodox Byzantines,and Oriental Orthodox. These are verified facts that no mature person can deny. But many Romans are unable to accept these facts, like other writers to this forum have expressed. Those of you who scream at them like little children show your own ignorance and immaturity and set a bad example for those who might be interested in your religion. Your pope-patriarch is more honest and mature than you are. You praise him for asking forgiveness and then try to cover the facts or deny them by implying there is nothing to forgive. The Jewish rabbi and the Orthodox writer are much more honest and mature than you are. Now you are acting like the old Roman Church by suppressing their right to express themselves. Now...that is really bizarre! What are you so afraid of...the TRUTH? All dictatorial religions try to suppress the truth...especially the Roman church. This is an historical fact that is easily confirmed with a plethora of data. You (Catholics) almost destroyed our Mar Thoma Orthodox Church in India when the Portuguese invaded,and even worse, you created an uniate church that played the part of Judas Iscariotes and helped persecute their own Mar Thoma people. I understand you did the same in the Ukrainian lands where the Orthodox were driven from their churches by the Polish and Austro_Hungarians and the uniates cooperated. The same has happened in other regions where the Latins have forced uniate churches upon the people. The uniates should be ashamed of their lack of Christian ethics and betraying their own kinsmen into the hands of the Latins. And you expect us Jacobites, a very small and defenseless people but very brave and loyal, to respect you. Repent and change your evil ways and we will. We repent every day of our lives for our sins-please join us like brothers and do the same.

Mr.Elias: Certainly,sir,when the popes
repent of their arrogance and put
their imperial designs behind them, we
will fulfill the Divine Savior's
command that "all may be one."You are
right about uniates being
"Impressionists":you leave a bad
impression wherever you go! And you, a
uniate, question the Christianity of
an Orthodox. In the true "humble-
arrogance" of a Roman. I must add that
you might look upon Catholicism as
being an exercise in aesthetics but
our Mar Thoma Orthodox Church teaches
it is one of ethics;that must be why
we have never persecuted fellow
Christians while you Romans have.We
love to live our faith at a higher
level than you uniates evidently do.
Nothing personal and I am sorry to be
so blunt but you spoke first.

[This message has been edited by Mar Thoma (edited 04-27-2000).]

Mar Thoma,

Is your church the Antiochian variety or Indian? There are several Thomas Christian Churches from SW India that I lose track which church (Orthodox or Catholic) gobbled up who over the centuries.

Christianity speaks of dividing families but hoping for unity. There are no Jews or Greeks but there are national churches. Women are crowned in marriage equally with men but cannot offer the eucharist. The Gospels cannot agree on which day the Last Supper was celebrated but the churches can agree who is wrong in not accepting THEIR day as the day of the Last Supper (leavened or unleavened). Oh well.... at least we know who is to blame. The Orthodox blame the Popes, yet cooperated with the real enemy of communism. The Churches of the East suffered under their Muslim lords, but won't ask that they beg forgiveness. Don't want to hang at the Phanar. Yet a Pope who DOES ask forgiveness is spat upon just like Christ was spat upon by his tormentors. We are all sinners and schismatics. No one is blameless. The Orthodox reject the Evangelical's claim of an 'invisible church' but promote the same error to protect the virgin-like Orthodox Church which is not made up of sinners - only saints. Hmmmm. We are all crap needing His healing.

Elias


[This message has been edited by Elias (edited 04-27-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Elias (edited 04-27-2000).]

Brother in Christ: The Lord is Risen! I hope you will not sever my head for referring to you as brother! (I could probably think just as well without it) We are both St.Thomas and Syrian Jacobite. Our ties with the Chaldean Church were broken after the Portuguese invasion and we had to seek apostolic succession from our Jacobite brethren. We are what you would refer to as "monophysite" although this is a term too arcane and inaccurate to have much contemporary signifance. Your Church, the beautiful church, somewhat tarnished, maybe suffering from the wounds of life lived in the past like a harlot and not an immaculate bride of Christ, the church of union and unity broke the unity of our church and caused us great harm. But the Good Lord protected us from the evil machinations of your greedy hierarchs and we have survived.
But as Christ forgave the harlot, I forgive the Roman church her many and manifold sins. If I do not forgive, why would Christ forgive me? I admire the Chalcedonion Orthodox for protecting the faith. Your Roman church has been upset with schism and heresy especially in the 16th cent with the falling away of the protestants and in the 19th cent. with the falling away of the Old Catholics and the last cent.with the many heretical theologians who are the illegitimate children of a church at war with itself. Int he last few centuries, since the falling away of the Roman church, Orthodox have not been beset by heretics at all! Amazing. The Orthodox are ruled from a higher throne than that of St.Peter, The Throne of the Lord Christ in Paradise from which the Father sends forth the Holy Spirit to hover above His Orthodox Church and protect Her from the terrible schisms and heresies that afflict your so-called "infallible and united" church. Some day you will see the error of your ways and renounce Satan and all his worldly power and return to Christ who is Lord of Lords and even the Lord of his imperial majesty, the Pope of Rome. I personally know uniates who agree with me. You mentioned the "Orthodox cooperating with the communists." Three churches out of 7 or 8? And many European Catholic churches cooperated with the Fascists. Like you said, we are all "crap." (Your expression not mine.) Perhaps that is true, but in the last century, you Romans had to pinch your nostrils a bit tighter than the Orhodox. I hope we can continue this good natured banter. My great desire would be to be a participant in an Eastern Catholic/Orthodox prayer and/or meditation conducted online by one of your monks or priests. Ultimately, prayer must bring us together or nothing will. Peace.

[This message has been edited by Mar Thoma (edited 04-27-2000).]

WOW! Ecclesiatical insults thinly veiled in personal humility! Whatever happened to love not keeing a record of wrongs???

And since when, MT, did the Portugese get equated with the Roman-rite? Stalin was an Orthodox seminarian. Do I blame Saint Vladimir's in New York for his carnage of millions of people?

Yes - ecclesiastical imperialism is an evil that (thankfully) is being wiped out in many places. I am reminded about the words of Jesus to the apostles warning them not to assimilate the ways of the world in shepherding the Church. It is a shame that too often in our histories, our shepherds and people have subjugated the cause of the Gospel to their own national interests. Perhaps as the Church becomes more and more the Church of the poor and the martyrs, we will, after the example of the poor and crucified Christ, set aside all struggle for worldly glory and seek only the infinite power of love in our lives.

So if you are QUITE done pointing out the various sticks in our eyes and the eyes of our ancestors (spiritual or otherwise), I agree with your assertion re: the importance of prayer to help us to move closer to Christ, and thus to each other. I wonder if there is a priest or monk in this forum that would be willing to take on your suggestion.

Peace my brother! I wish you a blessed Feast of the Resurrection!

Gordo, sfo

WOW! Ecclesiastical insults thinly veiled in personal humility! Whatever happened to love not keeing a record of wrongs???

And since when, MT, did the Portugese get equated with the Roman-rite? Stalin was an Orthodox seminarian. Do I blame Saint Vladimir's in New York for his carnage of millions of people?

Yes - ecclesiastical imperialism is an evil that (thankfully) is being wiped out in many places. I am reminded about the words of Jesus to the apostles warning them not to assimilate the ways of the world in shepherding the Church. It is a shame that too often in our histories, our shepherds and people have subjugated the cause of the Gospel to their own national interests. Perhaps as the Church becomes more and more the Church of the poor and the martyrs, we will, after the example of the poor and crucified Christ, set aside all struggle for worldly glory and seek only the infinite power of love in our lives.

So if you are QUITE done pointing out the various sticks in our eyes and the eyes of our ancestors (spiritual or otherwise), I agree with your assertion re: the importance of prayer to help us to move closer to Christ, and thus to each other. I wonder if there is a priest or monk in this forum that would be willing to take on your suggestion.

Peace my brother! I wish you a blessed Feast of the Resurrection!

Gordo, sfo

[This message has been edited by Dozier (edited 04-28-2000).]

Dozier: Christ is Risen! Touche in the Theotokos-Mother of God and mother of all sinners, of whom I am chief. Perhaps the question for Catholics and Orthodox to ask of ourselves is: Why are members of our churches, clerics and lay, so often associated in history with acts of extreme violence and oppression and why are the members of the Friends(Quaker), Mennonite, Brethren, and similar churches, not!?!? Fair question? Why did St.Bernard(?) preach in favor of a crusade and St.Francis, by his deeds, "preach" against a crusade? Another fair question? I am willing and.... really able!... to put the fighting and ecclesiastical politics behind and move on to the higher gifts and graces of the Lord. The Lord demands us to be good stewards of the time He has gifted us with and I want to make sure whatever time I spend in this Forum is constructively well-spent. O Panaghia-Theotokos: Pure in heart, when once they duly look upon Thee, surely then their complete success is certain---O, Thou fruitful to behold! True Peace between those who are merciful, I am your new friend!

Dozier writes:

And since when, MT, did the Portugese get equated with the Roman-rite? Stalin was an Orthodox
seminarian. Do I blame Saint Vladimir's in New York for his carnage of millions of people?

Reply: Stalin was both an ex Orthodox and an ex seminarian. He was both kicked out of the seminary and excommunicated by the Orthodox Church.