www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West The Catholic Church has apologized, when will the Orthodox Churches?

Dozier writes:

And since when, MT, did the Portugese get equated with the Roman-rite? Stalin was an Orthodox
seminarian. Do I blame Saint Vladimir's in New York for his carnage of millions of people?

Reply: Stalin was both an ex Orthodox and an ex seminarian. He was both kicked out of the seminary and excommunicated by the Orthodox Church.

"It is certainly a finer and more wonderful thing to change the mind of enemies to another way of thinking than to kill them...The mystery of the Eucharist requires that we should be innocent not only of violence but of all enmity, however slight, for it is the mystery of peace." St.John Chrysostom [URL=http://www.Kosovo.com

[This message has been edited by Mar Thoma (edited 04-28-2000).]

Robert,

Thank you for explaining Stalin's status as regards the Orthodox Church. (Hitler was an ex-Catholic.) I did not intend in any way to infer any guilt on the part of the Orthodox by association. In fact, my intention was to demonstrate the opposite!

Mar Thoma,

I agree with what you have written. As a lay Franciscan - and a somewhat clandestine member of Orthodox Peace Fellowship - such a study would be extremely worthwhile. In fact, I recently purchased a very worthwhile text entitled "For the Peace from Above: An Orthodox Resource Book on War, Peace, and Nationalism". It is published by SYNDESMOS, and edited by Hildo Bos and Jim Forest, whom I met this past year. It is a great resource for studying the underlying theology of peace. (If anyone is interested in acquiring a copy, one can be obtained through the SVS Theological Bookstore.)

In the States, it's unfortunate that many religious and political "conservatives" see the peace movement as some "liberal sham". Of course, many within this movement have seemed to go out of their way to earn such a label, given, for instance, their more than tacit approval of the practice of abortion. Can you imagine! They cry "Peace! Peace!" and there is no peace...at least not for the unborn who are tragically and brutally torn from their mother's womb.

OPF is a notable exception of a fully pro-life peace organization, as well as some other Catholic organizations.

But if "shalom" is not to be found among Christians who are called to be the bearers and instruments of peace and communion, how can we chastise the nations as they "rage" against each other and their citizens?

Peace is fundamentally the teaching of the Gospel...I would even go so far as to say that it is the entire teaching of the Gospel! But not, of course, peace as the world gives. It goes beyond merely the cessation of external conflict, and embraces the recapitulation of the whole cosmos in the One true God (ala Saint Irenaeus).

May we seek to be true instruments of His peace!

Pax,

Gordo, sfo

[This message has been edited by Dozier (edited 04-29-2000).]

Remembrance of wrongs is the consummation of anger, keeper of sin, hatred of righteousness, ruin of virtues, poison of the soul, worm of the mind, shame of prayer...You will know that you have completely freed yourself of this rot, not when you pray for the person who has offended you, not when you exchange presents with him, not when you invite him to your table, but only when, on hearing that he has fallen into bodily or spiritual misfortune, you suffer and weep for him as for yourself.-St. John Climacus,The Ladder of Divine Ascent. Thanks on the book tip. On abortion and the Christian "left": I would be considered a Jim Wallis-Dorothy Day-Father Merton "lefty". But any Christian who preaches peace between nations and at the same time preaches violence-the most horrible violence imaginable- between mother and child suffers from diabolical moral dissonance:"Evil is good and good is evil." The Catholic Church holds the high-moral ground on this issue, especially the Holy Father in Rome. The rest of us have barely entered the fray. If the Orthodox do not engage themselves in the work of being serious peacemakers for Christ and protectors of the unborn then I just might do the unthinkable and become a Catholic and a "uniate" at that!(Just kidding.) "Christ has died, Christ is risen,Christ shall come again!" Orthodox Peace Fellowship: www.incommunion.org. [incommunion.org.] My "lefty" blessing:"Toil and peaceful life."

[This message has been edited by Mar Thoma (edited 04-29-2000).]

Mar Thoma,

For me, I have always found that the most difficult commandment of Christ was "love your enemies." Our passions often keep us from maintaining the supernatural perspective which is required for such an act. We are thinking only about how we feel about being wronged or knowing that others that we love have been wronged.

I should mention that I am a child of the Rambo-Schwarzenegger generation. I grew up witnessing violent resolution to problems on the screen. (Movies have become the contemporary blood-drenched "circuses" of the masses. I shop at Paneras for my bread! ) It's only been in recent years that I have begun to reflect more and more on Psalm 11:5 "The Lord tests the righteous, but the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates." Of course, the great irony of that Psalm is that it was written by King David...who had killed his tens-of-thousands! He must have done it with no love for violence in his heart...(no sarcasm there.) My point is that I've weaned myself from violent movies - at least movies with senseless graphic violence.

I know quite a bit about Father Thomas Merton (I had my High School conversion at the Abbey of Gethsemani where he had lived...and my father is a big Merton fan...). I'm learning more about the Servant of God, Dorothy Day, whose cause for canonization was just approved in Rome!

Who is Jim Wallis?

Since the Holy Father published his encyclical letter, "The Gospel of Life", I have also become a convert to the anti-death penalty position. Unilateral disarmament is still a question in my mind, especially due to the growing proliferation of these weapons to very hostile nations. The threat of MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) may be the only deterrance. That and an effective SDI (Strattegic Defense Initiative), aka "Star Wars" or another anti-ballistic system.

So I guess I'm "liberal" on some things and "conservative" on others!

Peace,

Gordo, sfo

Mar Thoma,

For me, I have always found that the most difficult commandment of Christ was "love your enemies." Our passions often keep us from maintaining the supernatural perspective which is required for such an act. We are thinking only about how we feel about being wronged or knowing that others that we love have been wronged.

I should mention that I am a child of the Rambo-Schwarzenegger generation. I grew up witnessing violent resolution to problems on the screen. (Movies have become the contemporary blood-drenched "circuses" of the masses. I shop at Paneras for my bread! ) It's only been in recent years that I have begun to reflect more and more on Psalm 11:5 "The Lord tests the righteous, but the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates." Of course, the great irony of that Psalm is that it was written by King David...who had killed his tens-of-thousands! He must have done it with no love for violence in his heart...(no sarcasm there.) My point is that I've weaned myself from violent movies - at least movies with senseless graphic violence.

I know quite a bit about Father Thomas Merton (I had my High School conversion at the Abbey of Gethsemani where he had lived...and my father is a big Merton fan...). I'm learning more about the Servant of God, Dorothy Day, whose cause for canonization was just approved in Rome!

Who is Jim Wallis?

Since the Holy Father published his encyclical letter, "The Gospel of Life", I have also become a convert to the anti-death penalty position. Unilateral disarmament is still a question in my mind, especially due to the proliferation of these weapons in very hostile nations. The threat of MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) may be the only deterrance. That and an effective SDI (Strattegic Defense Initiative), aka "Star Wars" or another anti-ballistic system.

So I guess I'm "liberal" on some things and "conservative" on others!

Peace,

Gordo, sfo

[This message has been edited by Dozier (edited 04-29-2000).]

Jim Wallis is an evangelical Peacenik-Freak for Jesus who drives evangelicals to the point of falling into a post-Reformation coma by saying hyper-Catholic/Orthodox things such as:"In the new millenium, faith will be known by action. We need to break through the individualistic and privatized approach to spirituality and reconnect with real community."-Faith Works:Lessons from the Life of an Activist Preacher. He is an expert on disarmament and the Gospel solution to poverty, especially in the inner city. I first learned of him when I was a volunteer with Lutherans hands-on engaged with the first attempts at ministering to HIV/AIDS sufferers. His essays helped reinforce our faith and we needed "lots" of reinforcement under those circumstances. He is definitely my kind of Flower Child cum Jesus Freak/Peacenik that I resonate so well with. Edits a wonderful magazine:www.sojourners.com. I'm off
to church. Christ is Risen!.

Laudetur Jesus Christus!
I know a little bit of history and I am aware ofmany very dark pages of western Church's past. But costant assaults of non-catholics on this forum make me slowly tired.
Especially since they are often closely kin to the political corectnees mentality.
So crusades were heinous crime but was four centuries earlier muslim invasion of the very same countries, then entirely christian, OK? And Mr Sweiss should remember that first crusade started as an answer to the request for help against muslim from byzantine emperor Alexy I.(Nicea, city of two ecumenical councils, was already under muslim rule).
Dear Soulsearcher,
In one of your post you wrote about church-led pogroms in Poland; would you like, please, specify concrete examples? Do you know that Poland was the only one country in Europe under nazi-german occupation, where helping the Jews was punished with immediate death penalty?
In Christ.
piotr c

Dear pio5tr c,
Christ is Risen! Indeed He is Risen!

What I have stated on this and other forums are not assaults but committed crimes by the Roman Catholic Church. Since you are "aware of many dark pages of western Church's past" that means a great deal of history. The First Crusade ended up being a big disaster and I would have to say no thanks to anyones help. The status quo under Muslim rule was much better or tolerant than that of the West. We know what happened when the Latins established their Kingdom in the Middle East and I am grateful for Salah Al-Deen, a Muslim, for ridding it. This forum began to proceed to extract an apology from the Orthodox Church for which I say there is none because She was not diabolical as Rome was. The Orthodox Church never accepted Rome concept of "Just War" because of our Holy Tradition forbade it. Our deaths and martyrdom only reinforced the Truth about who we were. You are only digging a grave for yourselves if you think that the Orthodox Church will apologize for something that She has not committed. If anyone should apologize it is the Uniate Church for breaking with Orthodoxy. This is the most wicked historical crime and abandonment from the Orthodox Church. It's like a bunch of children turning against the truths of their Mother. These children think they know better than their own Mother by breaking the relationship. They find a step-Mother(Rome) while their real Mother is still alive. This is the greatest lie and crime ever perpetrated against the Orthodox Church. You uniates are lost by claiming to have the best of both worlds when one of your worlds is distorted in essence. I take no pride in viewing this pseudo-union and attachment to false teachings. Again, this is not a matter of two Traditions because there is only one Tradition. You defenders of Rome continue to live in error by defending error. I only pray for your return to the Orthodox Church. Don't believe for one second that being in union with Rome will eventually cause change in Rome. The fact is you have opened yourselves up falsities and somehow you have to develop a consistent view of this union to prevent a person such as myself from knocking it. Let me remind you again that uniatism was and is a false creation to subdue the Orthodox Church. To subdue the Orthodox Church would mean that the Pope is the Head of the Universal Church. God forbid! The only Head of the Church is Christ Jesus. Remember that.