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Query:
Could anyone elaborate on this lesser-known idea in Patristic theology of praying souls out of hell?
I am not implying the apokatastasis, or Bishop Puhalo's emphasis on the indeterminate nature of a presently fixed ethereal realm, or St. Silhouan's "pray as if you are in hell"; rather I am curious as to this "praying-souls-out-of-hell" teaching and its dogmatic quality in the Eastern Church.
Thank you.
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Query:
Could anyone elaborate on this lesser-known idea in Patristic theology of praying souls out of hell?
I am not implying the apokatastasis, or Bishop Puhalo's emphasis on the indeterminate nature of a presently fixed ethereal realm, or St. Silhouan's "pray as if you are in hell"; rather I am curious as to this "praying-souls-out-of-hell" teaching and its dogmatic quality in the Eastern Church.
Thank you. In the Third Kneeling Prayer which we read Pentecost Sunday we pray to the Lord Almighty that he will release those who are held in the bondage of Hell. "...who also on this all-perfect and saving feast, art graciously pleased to accept propitiatory prayers for those who are imprisoned in Hell, promising unto us and unto those held in bondage great hope of release from the vileness that doth hinder us and hinder them... We who are living will bless thee, and will pray, and offer unto thee propitiatory prayers and sacrifices for their souls." Admittedly the Church is diffident about praying for souls in hell and in its public liturgy it restricts such prayer to this one day of the Year - Pentecost. The dogmatic teaching of the Eastern Church is, in a large sense, determined by its liturgical deposit, or perhaps it would be better to say that the two are intercomplementary.
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Praying for those in hell...I was reading an article recently by Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev called "Orthodox Worship as a School of Theology", and I came across the following:- Bishop Hilarion: "Several years ago I came across a short article in a journal of the Coptic Church where it stated that this Church had decided to remove prayers for those held in hell from its service books, since these prayers “contradict Orthodox teaching”. Puzzled by this article, I decided to ask a representative of the Coptic Church about the reasons for this move. Recently I had the possibility to do so, and a Coptic Metropolitan replied that the decision was made by his Synod because, according their official doctrine, no prayers can help those in hell. "I told the metropolitan that in the liturgical practice of the Russian Orthodox Church and other local Orthodox Churches there are prayers for those held in hell, and that we believe in their saving power. This surprised the Metropolitan, and he promised to study this question in more detail." Here is the original article ... http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/12/1.aspx
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to remove prayers for those held in hell from its service books Father Ambrose: Father bless!! This seems to be an interesting move since it would seem that the earlier practice of the Coptic Orthodox Church parallels that of the Russian Orthodox Church (and presumably the Greek Orthodox Church). So it would seem that the practice is of great antiquity. That said, it seems interesting to me given the very conservative stance of the Coptic Orthodox Church in its liturgical life. Asking for your blessing and continued holy prayers, BOB
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Remember that Pope Saint Gregory the Great prayed for the Emperor Trajan and his prayer was heard...Trajan was saved: the Roman emperor, he who was a pagan, he who killed Christians in the Colosseum! Why did this great Pope of Rome pray for Trajan? Because there was a time when the holy Church of Rome was joined with her sister Churches and there was a time when the Romans believed that God would deliver souls from hell. But in later centuries this teaching has been lost. We see the belief in the great prayer which still remains in the Roman liturgy for the dead: "Libera animas omnium fidelium defunctorum de poenis inferni et de profundo lacu." Roman scholars will say that this prayer means exactly what it says. Roman theologians will say that this was an error in the belief of the ancient Church and they have corrected it. They have retained the prayer but they no longer understand it as their ancestors in the faith understood it. -oOo- There is no doubt that our ancestors in the faith, from the Emerald Isle, during the first millennium believed that souls could be released from hell. Take Saint Samthann of Clonbroney. We actually celebrate her memory today, 19th December. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-saints/message/3660She was well known for the ability to get a soul out of hell. Saint Aidan of Ferns was also known for this. Praying a soul out of hell was, however, not an uncommon accomplishment for Irish saints; one scholar Lisa Bitel has claimed it to be an "almost exclusively Celtic motif." So, certainly in the early days when Christianity was fresh and strong they thought that they could pray a man out of hell. Now it may be seen as rather questionable theology in our days, for either Church. Maybe the early Christians were wrong. Who can say? Once again, their old belief places a gentle question mark over some of the things that we have declared certain. Here is something from the Rule of Saint Maelruain, from the holy monastery of Tallaght. It is 8th century: "There is nothing which a person does for a soul that has departed that does not help it, both vigil and abstinence, and singing the intercession and frequent blessings. Filii pro mortuis parentibus debent poenitere.
A whole year therefore was Saint Maidoc of Ferns, with all his people, living on water and biscuit so as to ransom the soul of Brandubh, son of Eochaidh, from hell."
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As late as the 1530's in the Latin Church, St Derfel in North Wales was believed to rescue souls from Hell. Thomas Cromwell acting on behalf of Henry VIII was put in charge of destroying images of the Saint, of which one wooden one was used as firewood to burn Blessed John Forrest.
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Thanks for the reminder about the kneeling prayer and I thought of the Offertory in the Roman Rite Requiem too.
Praying people out of hell seems loving — it's obviously appealing — but logically it has the same problem as apocatastasis and universalism in general. It violates free will. So it seems to be heresy.
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Thanks for the reminder about the kneeling prayer and I thought of the Offertory in the Roman Rite Requiem too.
Praying people out of hell seems loving — it's obviously appealing — but logically it has the same problem as apocatastasis and universalism in general. It violates free will. So it seems to be heresy. The Russian Orthodox, as you see from the words of Archbishop Hilarion, believe in it. One more heresy to our account.  But it is a kind of positive and kind heresy! And, given the Kneeling Prayers at Vespers, I imagine that Eastern Catholics believe it also? Would that be the case?
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Father Ambrose, I thought that I would have remembered "...who also on this all-perfect and saving feast, art graciously pleased to accept propitiatory prayers for those who are imprisoned in Hell, promising unto us and unto those held in bondage great hope of release from the vileness that doth hinder us and hinder them... We who are living will bless thee, and will pray, and offer unto thee propitiatory prayers and sacrifices for their souls." from the kneeling prayers, so I pulled out my Trebnyk (as compliled by Fr Demetrius Wysochansky, OSBM, Basilian Press, Etobicoke, Ontario 1986). It reads as follows: On this perfect and salutary feast, make us worthy to utter supplications in favor of those imprisoned in PURGATORY, O Lord, for you promised to grant relief to the dead from the afflictions besetting them, and to send down consolation and repose upon them. Accept then, our prayers, give rest to the souls of your departed servants, in a place of joy and happiness, where there is no pain, sorrow, or sighing; establish them in peace and joy in the mansions of the Saints.
O Lord, the dead send up no praise to You, but we the living will bless You, and send up our prayers, and sacrifices for their souls and our own; for You are the peace of our souls and bodies, and we give glory to You, Father Son and Holy Spirit, now and ever, and forever. Maybe I'm not clear on what "praying people out of hell" means? If you mean that our intercessory prayers for a living or dieing person who we believe is destined for hell....for example Osama BinLadin, or Stalin or Hitler before they died, or even Judas before he committed suicide ....then I agree with the statement. But if you mean a person who has died and his soul committed to Hell ....I would disagree. Could some of the perceived conflict with the early Church be due to terminology? The Apostle Creed is sometimes prayed "(Christ) was crucified, died and buried, He descended into hell, the third day He rose again from the dead..." The more appropriate wording would be to substitute "Hades" for "Hell," with Hades being the world of the dead, or Sheaol. Or is Archbishop Hilarion taking the position that there is not a "purgatory" and the "hell" of which he (and the kneeling prayer)speaks is actually the state of souls awaiting Final Judgment? I look forward to your comments. Christ is amongst us! Fr Deacon Paul
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Father Ambrose, I thought that I would have remembered "...who also on this all-perfect and saving feast, art graciously pleased to accept propitiatory prayers for those who are imprisoned in Hell, promising unto us and unto those held in bondage great hope of release from the vileness that doth hinder us and hinder them... We who are living will bless thee, and will pray, and offer unto thee propitiatory prayers and sacrifices for their souls." from the kneeling prayers, so I pulled out my Trebnyk (as compliled by Fr Demetrius Wysochansky, OSBM, Basilian Press, Etobicoke, Ontario 1986). It reads as follows: On this perfect and salutary feast, make us worthy to utter supplications in favor of those imprisoned in PURGATORY, O Lord, for you promised to grant relief to the dead from the afflictions besetting them, Dear Father Deacon, at my age I am immune to shock or so I thought, but this has set me back on my heels  The Slavonic most definitely prays for their deliverance from Hell. I do not have a copy of the original Greek but I would be 99.9% certain that it too speaks of Hell. So your Trebnik has been subjected, I would think, to latinisation. A latinisation on two counts - the deliberate mistranslation of your ancient Greek and Slavonic liturgical text, and the introduction of the word "Purgatory" which I understand is not used by Eastern Catholics? Do you have any way of referring to earlier Eastern Catholic Trebniks?
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Or is Archbishop Hilarion taking the position that there is not a "purgatory" and the "hell" of which he (and the kneeling prayer)speaks is actually the state of souls awaiting Final Judgment? Father, as you can see from Archbp Hilarion's conversation with the Coptic Metropolitan he is speaking about deliverance from Hell per se. The Copts, to his amazement, have ceased to pray for souls in hell seeing their deliverance from there as impossible. He is not speaking about the state of souls awaiting judgement since both we and the Copts are in full agreement about the efficacy of prayers for them.
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I have often heard that many monks on Mount Athos pray for the devil's conversion. If that is so, wouldn't that be the ultimate in "praying someone out of hell?"
Ray
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Maybe I'm not clear on what "praying people out of hell" means? If you mean that our intercessory prayers for a living or dieing person who we believe is destined for hell....for example Osama BinLadin, or Stalin or Hitler before they died, or even Judas before he committed suicide ....then I agree with the statement. But if you mean a person who has died and his soul committed to Hell ....I would disagree.
<snip>....
Could some of the perceived conflict with the early Church be due to terminology? The Apostle Creed is sometimes prayed "(Christ) was crucified, died and buried, He descended into hell, the third day He rose again from the dead..."
The more appropriate wording would be to substitute "Hades" for "Hell," with Hades being the world of the dead, or Sheaol. Father, Linguistically we cannot make in Russian the distinction which we can in English between Hades and Hell. That is why when they are speaking English Russian speakers will use either term, interchangeably. Russian Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev of Vienna, Russian Orthodox Church's Representative for the EU (now Archbishop Hilarion of Volokolamsk and head of the Department of External Church Relations. "The Descent of Christ into Hades in Eastern and Western Theological Traditions"A lecture delivered at St Mary's Catholic Cathedral, Minneapolis, USA, on 5 November 2002 http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/11/1/5.aspx[For full article] Extract: __________________________________________ The descent of Christ into Hades is one of the most mysterious, enigmatic and inexplicable events in New Testament history. In today's Christian world, this event is understood differently. Liberal Western theology rejects altogether any possibility for speaking of the descent of Christ into Hades literally, arguing that the scriptural texts on this theme should be understood metaphorically. The traditional Catholic doctrine insists that after His death on the cross Christ descended to hell only to deliver the Old Testament righteous from it. A similar understanding is quite widespread among Orthodox Christians. On the other hand, the New Testament speaks of the preaching of Christ in hell as addressed to the unrepentant sinners: 'For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which he went and preached to the spirit in prison, who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited. However, many Church Fathers and liturgical texts of the Orthodox Church
repeatedly underline that having descended to hell, Christ opened the way to
salvation for all people, not only the Old Testament righteous. The descent
of Christ into Hades is perceived as an event of cosmic significance
involving all people without exception. They also speak about the victory of
Christ over death, the full devastation of hell and that after the descent
of Christ into Hades there was nobody left there except for the devil and
demons.-oOo- Bishop Hilarion was also guest speaker at the Divine Mercy Congress last year where his speech was so greatly appreciated that the applause could not be stopped. This is all the more remarkable because it was also applauded by Cardinal Schornberg and yet by Catholic lights the speech contained some notable heresy!! http://thedivinemercy.org/news/story.php?NID=3132The [Divine Mercy] Congress Catches Fire!Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: Christ the Conqueror of Hell Russian Orthodox Bishop: God's Mercy is immeasurable love of the Father By Dan Valenti (Apr 6, 2008)
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The Trebnyk which I quoted was Ukraninian Greek Catholic because it was the handiest reference which I had.
From the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Pentecostarian the prayer excerpts read:
(First part of Third Kneeling Prayer)
O ever-flowing, living, and enlightening source; O creative Power, co-eternal with the father, who most marvelously fulfilled the entire plan concerning our salvation; O Christ our God, who shattered the indissoluble bonds of Death and the bolts of Hades; You trampled upon a multitude of the evil spirits, offering yourself for us as a blameless Victim and giving your most pure Body, untouched and unapproachable by any sin, as a sacrifice. An through this awesome and inscrutable sacred sacrifice, You have given us eternal life.
For by descending into Hades and smashing the eternal gates, and having shown the way to heaven to those who were sitting in darkness, you ensnared the Prince of evil and the snake of the Abyss with divinely-wise enticements. And you bound him with the chains of gloom by your immeasureable power, and You shackled him In Tartarus, the deepest infernal region of Hades, and through your might confined him to the unquenchable fire and the eternal darkness.
The prayer goes on and then reads....
Also, on this salvific feast on which everything was totally accomplished, You deigned, therefore, to accept supplications in behalf of those who are imprisoned in Hades; and to those being held in bondage, You promised great hopes for their release from the grievous bonds constraining them by sending down your consolation.
Hear us, your humble servants, beseeching You, and grant repose to the souls of your servants who have already departed into a place of light and a place of refreshment and peace from which all illness, sorrow, and sighing have been taken away. Commit their souls to the places of the just, and make them worthy of peace and of repose. For the dead cannot praise You, O Lord, nor do those in Hades venture to offer confession to You. But we, the living, do bless You, and we do pray and offer You supplications and sacrifices for their souls.
Here is the definition of Tarturus according to Wikipedia (it was not listed in OrthodoxWiki):
In classic mythology, below Heaven, Earth, and Pontus is Tartarus, or Tartaros (Greek Τάρταρος, deep place). It is a deep, gloomy place, a pit, or an abyss used as a dungeon of torment and suffering that resides beneath the underworld. In the Gorgias, Plato (c. 400 BC) wrote that souls were judged after death and those who received punishment were sent to Tartarus. As a place of punishment, it can be considered a hell. The classic Hades, on the other hand, is more similar to Old Testament Sheol.
IMHO Tartarus is synonymous with our understanding of "Hell" (where "the Prince of evil and the snake of the Abyss" dwells) and Hades is synonymous with Sheaol.
Unknown to us mortals is the distinction between the place of purging and/or those awaiting the Final Judgment. More defined IMHO, is Heaven, the place of the Just, and Hell, "the fire that shall never be quesnched-- where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched" (Mk9:43-44).
Awaiting to glorify the virgin birth,
Fr Deacon Paul
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Back in the 1970s Fr Seraphim and The Orthodox Word had made sure that we all had the schema of the afterlife firmly fixed in our brains, at least according to Fr Seraphim's ideas. I could have rattled off the difference between hell and hades and gehenna in 10 seconds.
But when I learned from my spiritual father at the monastery in Serbia that this schema cannot be found in the Fathers, that they do not teach much about the afterlife very precisely, that they interchange terms constantly and that it is not possible to draw up any consistent schema based on the Fathers - well, what was the point of adopting any one particular schema and insisting that it was *the* one? So it is not a case of "simply not knowing." It is more a case of giving up and admitting, as did Saint Paul, that at the very best we can only "see through a glass darkly" and all our speculative systems about the afterlife are pretty much based on the pride of the human mind which cannot bear to admit that it does not know something and so to fill the vacuum it spins theories of its own.
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Father bless. Very well said! I agree 100%. May God grant you many graces this Nativity season! Fr Deacon Paul
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I am interested in learning more about this. Are there any Orthodox books that delve into this? Thank you.
Anthony
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I think this may stem from the Orthodox understanding of what Hell is.
Since our God is a Living Fire and those who love Him experience their hearts being set on fire with love for Him, and since those who don't experience His Fire find themselves with Him wrapping Himself around them because He loves even those who hate and reject Him, it seems that prayers on their behalf are for the purpose of some sort of repentance that allows them to open themselves to being set on fire like those who have loved Him throughout their lives in this place of testing. It points to a Mercy that is beyond our comprehension and I see it as the immense generosity that is poorly reflected in the Parable of the Laborers in the Vineyard. All who finally have their whole lives focused on being at-one with the Living Fire have the same reward, even those who come late to the game: gazing on Him and praising His Holy Name forever.
BOB
Last edited by theophan; 12/23/09 02:12 PM. Reason: spelling
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Anthony:
I would like to know that too. I have found some that allude to it, Puhalo's works, and Peter Mohyla; but nothing that address this specifically. Let me know if you find one.
Thanks
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Anthony, I don't know of any book on the topic. I would doubt if there is one. Theophan, a nice piece of writing. _______________ P.S. It crossed my mind that we could look for a scholarly piece of writing about the transition in meaning of the phrase in the Roman Liturgy for the Dead: "Libera animas omnium fidelium defunctorum de poenis inferni et de profundo lacu." It moved from a literal understanding as a prayer for the deliverance of souls from hell to something else. ________________ The Catholic Encyclopedia has a brief comment on this phrase in which it rather reluctantly admits that God may free souls from hell... "........... In itself, it is no rejection of Catholic dogma to suppose that God might at times, by way of exception, liberate a soul from hell. Thus some argued from a false interpretation of 1 Peter 3:19 sq., that Christ freed several damned souls on the occasion of His descent into hell. Others were misled by untrustworthy stories into the belief that the prayers of Gregory the Great rescued the Emperor Trajan from hell. But now theologians are unanimous in teaching that such exceptions never take place and never have taken place, a teaching which should be accepted." http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm
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Since our God is a Living Fire and those who love Him experience their hearts being set on fire with love for Him, and since those who don't experience His Fire find themselves with Him wrapping Himself around them because He loves even those who hate and reject Him . . . Father Ambrose: Father bless!! Some time ago we had a thread that asked if we believed in a literal Hell. From my study of Orthodox theology and other sources, I found this ida of the distinction between Heaven and Hell. It makes so much sense to me that I can tell people that I do believe in this distinction. That we will experience God, the Living Fire, in eternity in one way or another seems to be a given. He sustains all of us in being, even Satan who hates Him from all eternity. God does not destroy anyone or anything He has created, honoring the free will He has given us. What greater life can there be than to be on fire with love so that the Beloved is at-one with us? Like the dikiri, the two flames become one without losing the distinctive fact that each is coming into the relationship as a separate being. The embrace of the One for the created that permeates one's whole being is a mystery that seems to have warmed believers in every age. So God lives deep in here where I live and in the place where He sees the most hidden thoughts and impulses. For the believer, Heaven begins now because I carry Him within me, especially when I am privileged to receive Him in Holy Communion. On the other hand, I can't think of any greater torment here than to be in the embrace of one that a person does not love. Imagine being forced to marry someone you despise, for example. How much worse for all eternity? This concrete way of looking at the question makes perfect sense to me as the answer to the question of whether there is a Hell as distinct from a Heaven. Asking for your blessing and continued holy prayers, BOB
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Very well said! I agree 100%. May God grant you many graces this Nativity season! Merry Christmas! or Happy Saint Finnian's Day! 'Tis frenzy blind, 'Tis witlessness, 'tis madness wild-- Since still to deathward all life tends-- To be unfriendly with Mary's Child. - Airbberteach Mac Coise Dobrain (990) __________________________ Life of Saint Finnian of Clonard, Teacher of the Saints of Ireland http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-saints/message/3267
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While on first glance it may appear that with the notion of "praying souls out of Hell," we are confronted with a significant difference between the Eastern and Latin Churches, I suggest that the difference is much smaller in reality.
First we need to make a clarification: when we speak of "Hell" in this context, we are not speaking of gehenna, i.e., the "place" or state of final condemnation subsequent to the Final Judgment. We are speaking, rather, of the intermediate state.
Theoretically, the Latin Church considers the particular judgment (the judgment experienced by the individual soul immediately after death) and the final judgment (the judgment experienced by all at the final resurrection) to be virtually identical. The judgment of the first will never be reversed by the latter. Why? Because the final orientation of the individual, either toward God or away from God, is definitively set at the moment of death. At that moment the individual will discover whether he loves God (however imperfectly) or hates God. Those who love God imperfectly must first undergo a process of purification before entering into the fullness of eternal joy and beatitude; but the final destiny of the souls in purgatory is certain. Theoretically, therefore, it would seem that the Latin Christian must reject the claim that we can pray people "out of Hell."
However, given that no one, this side of death, can know whether any individual human being has, in actuality, eternally rejected God (we do not know this even for Judas Iscariot or Adolf Hitler), the Latin Christian may and indeed must pray for the salvation of all the departed, without exception. So even though Latin and Eastern believers disagree on the "fluidity" of the intermediate state, they do commend and practice prayer for all the departed and together may hope for the ultimate salvation of all humanity.
Last edited by Fr_Kimel; 12/23/09 07:40 PM.
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Father Kimel:
Father bless!!
A story in the Desert Fathers, by Helen Waddell presents an interesting thought. To paraphrase:
Abba Macarius the elder was walking in the desert and came on a skull lying on the ground. He moved it with the staff he carried and the skull spoke to him. Macarius asked who the skull was and it answered that he had been a priest of the heathen who used to dwell in that desert. The skull also said that he knew who Macarius was and that whenever he (Macarius) prayed for those who were in eternal torment they were a bit consoled in that torment. Macarius asked what could such a consolation be and the skull replied, "As far as the sky is distant from the earth, so deep is the firebeneath our feet and above our head. And standing in the midst of the fire, there is not one of us can see his neighbor face to face. But when (you) pray for us, we (can) look upon each other, and this pass(es) . . . for consolation." Macarius, weeping, said, "Woe to the day in which man was born, if this be the consolation of his pain."
My own opinion is akin to those who don't want to speculate too much about things we have very little knowledge of. I trust in the boundless Mercy of God and keep everyone in prayer who has gone before me, as well as everyone who still continues his pilgrimage.
BOB
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While on first glance it may appear that with the notion of "praying souls out of Hell," we are confronted with a significant difference between the Eastern and Latin Churches, I suggest that the difference is much smaller in reality.
First we need to make a clarification: when we speak of "Hell" in this context, we are not speaking of gehenna, i.e., the "place" or state of final condemnation subsequent to the Final Judgment. We are speaking, rather, of the intermediate state. Father, I do appreciate that that may be the Latin teaching and it is indeed how the ancient "Libera" prayer from the Latin Requiem liturgy for the dead has come to be understood. Now of course anybody may be prayed for in the "intermediate" state. We do that and our Oriental Orthodox brethren do that and you do that. But the Copts have, only recently, changed their ancient way of praying and have stopped praying for those in hell (they see it as an aberration since nobody may be delivered from hell - this view comes from Patriarch Shenouda and in this you and he would be agreed.) The rest of the Orthodox world continues to pray for those in hell. Hopefully God will use our prayers to liberate Copts from hell now that their brethren have stopped praying for them.
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It is indeed the eve of the Nativity, when lion and lamb lie down together, for Father Ambrose and I are in agreement on this: in the Byzantine Orthodox Tradition, we indeed pray for souls in Hell, in addition to those in Hades. Those of us who hope for the Apokatastasis of all things really don't have much choice in the matter, do we?
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I thought the idea of an apokatastasis was condemned in the 2nd Council of Constantinople?
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Blessed Pope Pius IX and St. Pope Pius X condemned all sorts of things we now believe in today. Maybe belief in some sort of the apokatasis is not completely false. Dare we hope?
These are very mysterious matters and as such are way over my head.
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The apokatastasis of Origen, not the apokatastasis of Gregory of Nyssa.
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sielos ilgesys:
I personally find myself to be a fan of ther late Fr. Rahner's idea of the "Anonymous Christian", when it comes to after-life eligibility!
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There is a thing on facebook called become a spiritual child or Padre Pio. This was the post today:
Padre Pio said, "Maybe you don't know that I can even now pray for happy death of my great-grandfather." "But they have been dead many years," replied the doctor. "For the Lord, the past doesn't exist; the future doesn't exist. Everything is an eternal present. Those prayers had already been taken into account. And so ...I repeat that even now I can pray for the happy death of my great-grandfather."
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Prayer for Those in Hell It was particularly characteristic of Staretz Silouan [Saint Silouan of Mount Athos] to pray for the dead suffering in the hell of separation from God... He could not bear to think that anyone would languish in "outer darkness." I remember a conversation between him and a certain hermit, who declared with evident satisfaction, "God will punish all atheists. They will burn in everlasting fire." Obviously upset, the Staretz said, "Tell me, supposing you went to paradise, and there looked down and saw somebody burning in hell-fire -- would you feel happy? "It can't be helped. It would be their own fault," said the hermit. The Staretz answered him with a sorrowful countenance. "Love could not bear that," he said. "We must pray for all." http://books.google.com/books?id=SZ...20bear%20that%20st%20silouan&f=falseFrom The Inner Kingdom, Volume 1 of the collected works of Bp Kallistos Ware
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What scriptural basis is there for the belief that souls can be prayed out of Hell ? I personally hold out for the slight chance that souls could be released from Hell, but I see where it could become a very dangerous teaching.
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What scriptural basis is there for the belief that souls can be prayed out of Hell ? I personally hold out for the slight chance that souls could be released from Hell, but I see where it could become a very dangerous teaching. 2 Macc 12: 39-46 King James Version http://etext.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/Kjv2Mac.html
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What scriptural basis is there for the belief that souls can be prayed out of Hell ? I personally hold out for the slight chance that souls could be released from Hell, but I see where it could become a very dangerous teaching. Good point, Lawrence. Can anyone reference Scripture to reinforce "praying people out of Hell(Gehenna)? God's Mercy MAY allow it....but what about His Justice? If one accepts that the condemned themselves reject God by CHOOSING Hell, can our prayers help them to change their mind? This is the key argument that will give the answer. I, myself, would not even try make this judgment. The best scriptural argument that I can think of is Mt 7:1-2 Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. There are many scriptural references to God's Mercy...but there are just as many references to His Justice. Perhaps this is why no mainstream Christian Churches consistently teach of "praying people out of Hell." Fr Deacon Paul, who will continue praying for my deaceased family and friends without judgment.
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I have been pondering upon our current topic and how we may be able to add another dimension into our discussion. [ Linked Image] Who are the figures? What are they doing? Who is the central character? Who are the other figures and why are they there? Where are they? Who is at the bottom of the icon and what is happening to him? What are the implications for us and upon our discussion? Ray
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Father Ambrose:
Bless!
in your earlier post, did you say that the four part division of the states of the after-life (Gehenna, Hades, Paradise, Heaven) is not generally held in Orthodoxy?
I thought it was an officialy taught doctrine or at least generally established in the Orthodox Churches.
I think (could be mistaken) I read it in Hapgood.
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I confess I do not know what to make of the liturgical prayers for those "imprisoned in Hell." I presume that these souls, if there be any such souls, have died in a state of mortal sin, i.e., in a state of definitive rejection of the mercy and love of God. I do not understand how the prayers of the Church can effect a post-mortem conversion from self to God. Has not such a person already decided for self against God? Is not the time of choosing already concluded?
But I hope that it is true.
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The praying for the dead in Maccabes is part of why it was stricken by the protestants...
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An interesting quote from Saint Martin of Tours which backs up Saint Augustine's statement that many in the early Church believed in universal salvation, even including for the devil.
“If thou, thyself, wretched being, wouldst but desist from attacking mankind, and even, at this period, when the day of judgment is at hand, wouldst only repent of your deeds, I, with a true confidence in the Lord, would promise you the mercy of Christ.
Martin preaches Repentance even to the Devil.
Now, the devil, while he tried to impose upon the holy man by a thousand injurious arts, often thrust himself upon him in a visible form, but in very various shapes. For sometimes he presented himself to his view changed into the person of Jupiter, often into that of Mercury and Minerva. Often, too, were heard words of reproach, in which the crowd of demons assailed Martin with scurrilous expressions. But knowing that all were false and groundless, he was not affected by the charges brought against him. Moreover, some of the brethren bore witness that they had heard a demon reproaching Martin in abusive terms, and asking why he had taken back, on their subsequent repentance, certain of the brethren who had, some time previously, lost their baptism by falling into various errors. The demon set forth the crimes of each of them; but they added that Martin, resisting the devil firmly, answered him, that by-past sins are cleansed away by the leading of a better life, and that through the mercy of God, those are to be absolved from their sins who have given up their evil ways. The devil saying in opposition to this that such guilty men as those referred to did not come within the pale of pardon, and that no mercy was extended by the Lord to those who had once fallen away, Martin is said to have cried out in words to the following effect: “If thou, thyself, wretched being, wouldst but desist from attacking mankind, and even, at this period, when the day of judgment is at hand, wouldst only repent of your deeds, I, with a true confidence in the Lord, would promise you the mercy of Christ.” O what a holy boldness with respect to the loving-kindness of the Lord, in which, although he could not assert authority, he nevertheless showed the feelings dwelling within him! And since our discourse has here sprung up concerning the devil and his devices, it does not seem away from the point, although the matter does not bear immediately upon Martin, to relate what took place; both because the virtues of Martin do, to some extent, appear in the transaction, and the incident, which was worthy of a miracle, will properly be put on record, with the view of furnishing a caution, should anything of a similar character subsequently occur.
Source :: Sulpitius Severus "On the Life of St. Martin" Chapter XXII
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Father Ambrose:
Bless!
in your earlier post, did you say that the four part division of the states of the after-life (Gehenna, Hades, Paradise, Heaven) is not generally held in Orthodoxy?
I thought it was an officialy taught doctrine or at least generally established in the Orthodox Churches.
I think (could be mistaken) I read it in Hapgood. Dear Herbigny, I have to admit that I am having trouble formulating an answer using the fourfold schema of "Gehenna, Hades, Paradise, Heaven." The schema seems basically true but the Fathers have used those words with varying meanings, so you and I may be speaking of different things. Here are three quotes from widely differing centuries (5th, 17th and 20th) which show the same unanimous teaching on life after death... The teaching of Saint Augustine of Hippo: "During the time, moreover, which intervenes between a man's death and the final resurrection, the soul dwells in a hidden retreat, where it enjoys rest or suffers affliction just in proportion to the merit it has earned by the life which it led on earth." Augustine, Enchiridion, 1099 (A.D. 421). The 1980 Resolution of the ROCA Synod of bishops on the toll house belief... "Taking all of the foregoing into consideration, the Synod of Bishops resolve: In the deliberations on life after death one must in general keep in mind that it has not pleased the Lord to reveal to us very much aside from the fact that the degree of a soul's blessedness depends on how much a man's life on the earth has been truly Christian, and the degree of a man's posthumous suffering depends upon the degree of sinfulness. To add conjectures to the little that the Lord has been pleased to reveal to us is not beneficial to our salvation..." Interestingly enough, this is almost a word for word repetition of what Saint Augustine said 1500 years earlier! The Synod of Constantinople of 1672: "We believe that the souls of the departed are in either repose or torment as each one has wrought, for immediately after the separation from the body they are pronounced either in bliss or in suffering and sorrows, yet we confess that neither their joy nor their condemnation are yet complete. After the general resurrection, when the soul is reunited with the body, each one will receive the full measure of joy or condemnation due to him for the way in which he conducted himself, whether well or ill."
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Father Ambrose:
Bless!
in your earlier post, did you say that the four part division of the states of the after-life (Gehenna, Hades, Paradise, Heaven) is not generally held in Orthodoxy?
I thought it was an officialy taught doctrine or at least generally established in the Orthodox Churches.
I think (could be mistaken) I read it in Hapgood. If you go back to the first page of this topic, to Message 339760, you will find my opinion. It might be a poor one but it's all I got!
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The following is the best reference that we have to provide meditative material for this thread. It was revealed to the Apostle John, the Theologian and should be more authoritative than the writings of any post-apostolic writers:
AFTER THE MILLENNIUM:
Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceived the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, God and Magog to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.(Rev 20: 7-10)
Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
The sea gave up the dead who were in it , and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:11-15)
Liturgically, the Eastern Churches confirm this teaching on the Sunday of Meatfare, Commemoration the the Second Coming of Jesus Christ as Judge. On this day we hear and teach according to the Kontakion:
When you will come to earth in glory, o God, and all creatures will tremble before you, the river of fire will flow before Your judgment-seat, and the books will be opened and all hidden things revealed, deliver me from the unquenchable fire and make me worthy to stand at Your right hand, o righteous Judge.
According to the above, there is no pardon after the Last Judgment. Left open is the "possibility" of mercy through the intercession the prayers of the living, the angels, and the saints. I think this is the best that we can hope for regarding "praying people out of hell."
Fr Deacon Paul
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I've heard that the Latin doctrine of purgatory was dogmatically defined in "The Decree for The Greeks" at the Council of Florence, but I'm unable to find an English translation of this decree.
I'd like to know exactly what was "defined" as dogma.
Does the decree unambiguosly say that purgatory and hell are seperate places (or conditions)?
Does it say that a person's eternal destiny is set t the particular judgment?
Does it say that hell is "without end"?
If anyone has access to the words of the decree, could you please post them here?
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The prayer in the Mass for the Dead "Libera animas omnium fidelium defunctorum de poenis inferni et de profundo lacu" is known by Catholic theologians to have been a prayer for deliverance from Hell, but the same theologians point out that over the centuries such an understanding came to be seen as erroneous and the prayer was given a modified interpretation.
The Catholic Encyclopedia: "In itself, it is no rejection of Catholic dogma to suppose that God might at times, by way of exception, liberate a soul from hell. Thus some argued from a false interpretation of 1 Peter 3:19 sq., that Christ freed several damned souls on the occasion of His descent into hell. Others were misled by untrustworthy stories into the belief that the prayers of Gregory the Great rescued the Emperor Trajan from hell. But now theologians are unanimous in teaching that such exceptions never take place and never have taken place, a teaching which should be accepted."
The Eastern Orthodox maintain the older belief that deliverance from hell is possible. I would be interested to know how Eastern Catholics view this question?
Last edited by Hieromonk Ambrose; 11/09/10 08:33 AM.
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That is a good question, Father.
However, I am still confused at the way the terms; Gehenna, Hades, Tartarus, Lake of Fire are used, at sometimes seemingly interchangeably.
It also makes me wonder exactly what the Church means when it makes the statements it does about those who die in mortal sin or original sin only desending immediately into hell.
Which hell is it?
This has confused me for some time, and I have never really had anyone answer this question in a satisfactory way.
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This has confused me for some time, and I have never really had anyone answer this question in a satisfactory way. There are no satisfactory answers, because all answers on this matter -- and many others pertaining to our faith -- are speculation. Speculation rooted in faith and tradition, but speculation nonetheless. Part of the mystery of our faith is that we will never be satisfied until we are standing before the throne of the Most High.
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The prayer in the Mass for the Dead "Libera animas omnium fidelium defunctorum de poenis inferni et de profundo lacu" is known by Catholic theologians to have been a prayer for deliverance from Hell, but the same theologians point out that over the centuries such an understanding came to be seen as erroneous and the prayer was given a modified interpretation.
The Catholic Encyclopedia: "In itself, it is no rejection of Catholic dogma to suppose that God might at times, by way of exception, liberate a soul from hell. Thus some argued from a false interpretation of 1 Peter 3:19 sq., that Christ freed several damned souls on the occasion of His descent into hell. Others were misled by untrustworthy stories into the belief that the prayers of Gregory the Great rescued the Emperor Trajan from hell. But now theologians are unanimous in teaching that such exceptions never take place and never have taken place, a teaching which should be accepted."
The Eastern Orthodox maintain the older belief that deliverance from hell is possible. I would be interested to know how Eastern Catholics view this question? I'd be interested in that too. As to my own questions, someone was kind enough to email me a copy of what the Council of Florence said. ...if truly penitent people die in the love of God before they have made satisfaction for acts and omissions by worthy fruits of repentance, their souls are cleansed after death by cleansing pains; and the suffrages of the living faithful avail them in giving relief from such pains, that is, sacrifices of masses, prayers, almsgiving and other acts of devotion which have been customarily performed by some of the faithful for others of the faithful in accordance with the church's ordinances.
Also, the souls of those who have incurred no stain of sin whatsoever after baptism, as well as souls who after incurring the stain of sin have been cleansed whether in their bodies or outside their bodies, as was stated above, are straightaway received into heaven and clearly behold the triune God as he is, yet one person more perfectly than another according to the difference of their merits. But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains. If that's all the council said, the only things that seem to be unambiguously affirmed (or defined as dogma) are that some souls are cleansed after death, that the length or quality of their discomfort can be lessened by the suffrages of the living, and that there may be others who are less fortunate. I don't see anything here that dogmatically require one to believe anything more than that.
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That is a good question, Father.
However, I am still confused at the way the terms; Gehenna, Hades, Tartarus, Lake of Fire are used, at sometimes seemingly interchangeably. There is no agreed teaching in Orthodoxy about the details of the afterlife. Beyond a very broad outline we are "looking through a glass darkly." For example, Saint John Maximovitch says that the damned go to Gehenna. Saint Ignatiy Brianchaninov is clear on this too. Other modern teachers see Gehenna as the Lake of Fire and not yet in existence. It is the Lake of Fire which will be created in the future on Judgement Day. And again, other people will tell you it is already in existence but uninhabited. So that raises a question or two. In the 1970s when Fr Seraphim Rose and The Orthodox Word had made sure that we all had the schema of the afterlife firmly fixed in our brains, at least according to Fr Seraphim's ideas, I could have rattled off the difference between hell and hades and gehenna, sheol and tartarus in 10 seconds. But when I learned through my spiritual father at the monastery in Serbia that this schema cannot be found in the Fathers, that they do not teach much about the afterlife very precisely, that they interchange terms constantly and that it is not possible to draw up any consistent schema based on the Fathers - well, what was the point of adopting any one schema and insisting that it was *the* one? So it is not a case of "simply not knowing." It is more a case of giving up and admitting with Saint Paul that at the very best we can only "see through a glass darkly" and all our speculative systems about the afterlife are pretty much based on the pride of the human mind which cannot bear to admit that it does not know something and so to fill the vacuum it spins theories of its own. Again, I see the profound wisdom of the bishops of the Russian Church Abroad who warned people in their 1980 Resolution on the toll houses that there is great spiritual danger in creating conjectures about the afterlife.
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This has confused me for some time, and I have never really had anyone answer this question in a satisfactory way. There are no satisfactory answers, because all answers on this matter -- and many others pertaining to our faith -- are speculation. Speculation rooted in faith and tradition, but speculation nonetheless. Part of the mystery of our faith is that we will never be satisfied until we are standing before the throne of the Most High. As an Orthodox Christian, I agree and I believe that Fr. Ambrose has thoughtfully stated the Orthodox position as I was taught as a youth and believe as an adult.
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Father,
Thank you for your thoughtful reply.
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Father Ambrose:
Father bless!!
Thank God for you and thank you for this explanation.
I think, in all this, we all miss one very important point. That is, the MERCY of God. In one of the evening prayers from my Romanian Orthodox prayerbook, there is great hope
"O Master Who lovest all men, will not this bed be my grave? Or wilt Thou again enlighten my condemned soul with the day? Behold, the grave lieth before me. Behold, death standeth before me. Thy judgment, O Lord, I fear and the unending torments, yet I cease not from doing evil. O Lord, my God, continually I anger Thee and Thy Most Pure Mother, and all the Heavenly Powers, and my Holy Guardian Angel. I know, indeed, O Lord, that I am not worthy of Thy love for all men, but am worthy of every condemnation and torment, to be bound and cast out to suffer them all.
But, O Lord, whether I wish it or not, do Thou save me. For if Thou savest the Just, it is nothing great, and if Thou hast mercy on the Pure, it is nothing marvelous, for they are worthy of Thy Mercy. But upon me, a sinner, show the wonder of Thy Mercy. In this manifest Thy love for all men and let not my evil nature overcome Thy Grace and Kindness that cannot be told (expressed or comprehended). And as Thou wishest, orderest my goings aright. Enlighten my eyes, O Christ my God, that I sleep not in death, lest my Enemy say, 'I have prevailed against him.'"
My hope is in this bolded phrase. That the mercy of God is something so wonderful--something that can take away the breath of those on whom it is lavished--that I'll wait for and hope in Him. After all, one of God's names is "Mercy," right after "Love." This prayer has sunk deep into my own approach to the One Who came here to bridge the gap between the Father and me, and the Father and all of those who want it bridged.
In Christ,
Bob
Last edited by theophan; 11/10/10 01:31 PM. Reason: spelling
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The prayer in the Mass for the Dead "Libera animas omnium fidelium defunctorum de poenis inferni et de profundo lacu" is known by Catholic theologians to have been a prayer for deliverance from Hell, but the same theologians point out that over the centuries such an understanding came to be seen as erroneous and the prayer was given a modified interpretation.
The Catholic Encyclopedia: "In itself, it is no rejection of Catholic dogma to suppose that God might at times, by way of exception, liberate a soul from hell. Thus some argued from a false interpretation of 1 Peter 3:19 sq., that Christ freed several damned souls on the occasion of His descent into hell. Others were misled by untrustworthy stories into the belief that the prayers of Gregory the Great rescued the Emperor Trajan from hell. But now theologians are unanimous in teaching that such exceptions never take place and never have taken place, a teaching which should be accepted."
The Eastern Orthodox maintain the older belief that deliverance from hell is possible. I would be interested to know how Eastern Catholics view this question? Aren't Hans Urs von Balthasar and Wacław Hryniewicz catholic theologins? How can Catholic theologians be unanimous on teaching the impossibility of deleverence from hell, when some are clearly of the opinion that deliverence is possible? Here are some quotes: The two theologians, Hans Urs von Balthasar and Wacław Hryniewicz in supporting the hope of universal salvation are aware that apocatastasis was condemned by the Magisterium but make clear that hope of universal salvation does not contradict the official teaching...Is it possible that Christ descended into hell to end the punishment of sinners? Von Balthasar clearly understands it as a salvific event...According to Hryniewicz, the New Testament does not provide the definition of aoinios, “eternal”. It may only mean “to exist through the centuries”, “existing through the eons” (Hryniewicz, Dlaczego 168)...Eternity belongs to God alone. It is a sign of his absolute transcendence of all creatures. Only God is the absolute fullness of life without origin and without end. He alone is really eternal. The word “eternal” in relation to creatures may only have a limited and relative meaning (67). Moreover, in Plato’s writings the word aionios means persistence that will finally come to an end. Origen also noticed that aionios can have many meanings. According to him, the word in Sacred Scripture sometimes means something without end (ut unem nesciat), and another times it describes the reality that does not have an end in our world but will have an end in the future world (ut in praesenti quidem saeculo finem non habeat, habeat tamen in futuro) (Hryniewicz, Nadzieja 39). Therefore, says Hryniewicz, one cannot simply say that the Scriptures teach about “eternal punishment” but one has to get the proper meaning of this statement (Hryniewicz, Nadzieja 39). In Matthew 25:46 the torment (punishment) is called “eternal” and is parallel to “eternal life”. In both cases the same word aionion is used. For that reason, advocates of the traditional teaching about the eternity of hell see in this parallelism the fundamental proof for the existence of eternal hell. Hryniewicz interprets it differently. He states that in this case one should not see parallel symmetric but rather parallel asymmetrical (Hryniewicz, Nadzieja 41). In describing the meaning of the word kolasis, which means “torment”, Hryniewicz says that it may not mean a state that is indeed ultimate and irreversible. The “eternal torment” symbolizes purification. The cursed are to be purified in the fire of contrition. The Greek fathers, who supported the hope of universal salvation, saw the therapeutic sense of the “eternal torment” (Hryniewicz, Nadzieja 38-39). Hryniewicz summarizes that the eternity of God and the eternity of the life of redeemed cannot be treated on a par with the eternity of the state to which the cursed and the damned have been condemned. He writes in “Can Non-believers Be Redeemed”: It is a state of redemption and therapeutic character… Such a punishment is purposeful only when its therapeutic objective is possible to reach. The other punishment, even only allowed for by God would not be worthy of his love and mercy in relation to people including those lost and “cursed”. The asymmetrical parallel (Mt 25:46) results from the antithesis on which the parable of Jesus is based. It is the antithesis between the blessed (Mt 25:37.46) and the “cursed”, between the good and bad people and in consequence the antithesis between “eternal life” and “eternal punishment”. It says that something of human ultimate destiny is fulfilled already in earthly life. It is a warning. Such is its basic objective. The same adjective, “eternal,” is used in both cases but its meaning is different. These men are both Catholic Theologians. Any thoughts?
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The encyclopedia on newadvent is from 1913, if memory serves.
Von Balthasar is a theologian who came to prominence many years later, after that was written.
BTW, Michael, do you have the source for your quote?
Thanks
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Bob,
Thank you for posting that prayer.
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Fr Hryniewicz, though a Catholic priest, is actually a professor of Orthodox theology and the boss of the Chair of Orthodox Theology at the Catholic University of Lublin. Go figure.
He had some problems with the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith in 2008, but it's unclear to me how it ended.
Anyway, it's the never-ending story of who has the authority to teach in the Church: the bishops or the theologians. The correct answer (bishops) often remains theory only.
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[quote=danman916]The encyclopedia on newadvent is from 1913, if memory serves.
Von Balthasar is a theologian who came to prominence many years later, after that was written.
BTW, Michael, do you have the source for your quote?
Thanks
[/quote]
Yes.
Sorry I forgot the link.
http://culture.polishsite.us/mariusz/STB.pdf
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[quote=PeterPeter]Fr Hryniewicz, though a Catholic priest, is actually a professor of Orthodox theology and the boss of the Chair of Orthodox Theology at the Catholic University of Lublin. Go figure.
He had some problems with the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith in 2008, but it's unclear to me how it end ed.
Anyway, it's the never-ending story of who has the authority to teach in the Church: the bishops or the theologians. The correct answer (bishops) often remains theory only. [/quote]
I believe Pope Paul VI (who was a Bishop before becoming Pope) intended to raise Von Balthasar to the level of Cardinal, and I think Archbishop Luis F. Ladaria (secretary of The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) has pubished a book entittled "Jesus Christ: The Salvation of All (Miami Fl: Convivium Press., 2008), in which he supports Von Balthasar's views.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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MichaelB: Christ is in our midst!! the hope of universal salvation Therein lies a very important distinction that is not merely a matter of phrasing. To hope for universal salvation--that might be saved--is not the same as saying it will come to pass. Again, I think that the Sobor of the Russian Church Abroad has it right. There are some of these things that we ought not try to define, lest we get ourselves into spiritual trouble, whether in heresy or prelest or presumption. We have one hope--Jesus Christ--and the wonder of His Mercy. I once remarked that I don't like surprises--people jumping out from behind couches yelling "Happy Birthday" (REALLY DISLIKE that kind of stuff). But, if I make it into the Kingdom, I'm perfectly willing to be made speechless at what I see and have to absorb as the "wonder" of God, His Mercy, and His Kingdom. (And a friend of mine says he wants to be there just to see that--me speechless.) We stand on so much "sand" in this life, a life that is, as St. Paul puts it, "passing away." In this shifting environment, it ought to give us hope that our anchor is a Person, a Person we can trust explicitly. He said He was coming back for each of us. He said He was going to prepare a place for each of us dwell. His Resurrection is the promise of our own, since we have been plunged into Him by Baptism. He has said that there is a place of refreshment and a place of suffering. Seems to me we ought to focus on Him, His promises, and conforming our lives to be such that when He comes he immediately recognizes us and takes us along with a "Come with Me." I really appreciate the ROCOR bishops for calling us away from all this needless speculation that can become a diversion by which the Enemy can plant the seeds of doubt in Christ's promises. Somewhere in Scripture I remember a verse that says "It pleases your Father to give you the Kingdom." That's enough for me to absorb as I sit and do a quiet minute to focus on who I am, where I'm going, and what's important. I know I can't earn it. I know that with all the preparation in the world I fall short. But I am overwhelmed by the thought of that endless sea of mercy that will sweep over me and make it all happen. I am overwhelmed by the thought that even when I have shredded my Baptismal garment by my own sin, the Blood of Christ will enrobe me and make me a wonder for all of creation--that the length and breadth and heighth and depth of His Mercy cannot be exhausted by even me and all the foul stuff I've been able to do and think and say. So I wait for the mercy and hope that I will be astonished that it may reach to every other creature, too. There's another ribbon in this area. Jesus asked for forgiveness for His murderers from the Cross. He asked us to pray for our enemies to show that we are sons of the Father, as He is. So in this spirit of generosity, is it not our job to pray for and hope for all to be saved? That's not to say that all will be, but it is the same as hoping for all to be saved--and leaving the judging to Him Who came here to save us. In Christ, Bob
Last edited by theophan; 11/10/10 07:22 PM.
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"Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom" (Lk 12:32).
Thank you, Bob, for reminding us of this wonderful verse.
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If I think about it long enough it moves me to tears. Maybe it's because I have the spiritual fault of the unforgiving heart if I let myself move in that direction. And the Lord's trying to break me of it.
I'm reminded of the Parable of the Unforgiving Servant, who, after being forgiven enough debt that it would ahve taken several lifetimes to repay refused to forgive a fellow who owed him about a month's wages worth.
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For me, i recognize that Roman Catholicism has had a tendency to have a rather negative view towards the possibility of salvation, where it is rather common to hear a focus that many will not be saved. That can have a psychological effect on a person so that they are concentrating less on relying upon God's mercy and God's grace, and focusing more on a legalistic view of making sure they have counted all their sins so they can make a good confession.
Any prayer that recognizes our sinful ways, but rejoices in the real hope of God's mercy is very uplifting for me.
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Slava Isusu Khrestu
Hello Theophan
What you say makes so much sense to me that I am really shaken to tears. I was taught in the Catholic school system of Ontario(Canada)by nus! and it makes me think of a joke that was told to me several years ago that to a degree has truth and I can see from whence you and I come:
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A Jewish person, a Roman Catholic and a Protestant were discussing guilt and the Jewish person said," Our people are born with guilt" the Catholic said." our Catholics are taught guilt" and the Protestant said, " What is guilt?"
So may come by this confussion very easily
Unworthy
Kolya ( I was taught in the 40's and 50's....that should you tell you about me to a degree.
PS I pushed the wrong button here and only half of what I typed is here!
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Is it possible that our beliefs about God reflect our own internalized notions?
If we ourselves are stingy, then maybe we're gonna think God is, too.
I don't believe in a stingy God but rather in a generous and even indulgent God. Therefore I suspect most souls go to heaven (maybe not immediately after death) but rather after a perhaps long period of post-death purification; and that very few souls go to hell. The only creatures we know for sure are in hell are the fallen angels.
I am aware that several Bible verses and intelligent passages from esteemed theologians and saints can be quoted to contradict my views. It's important for me to be as optimistic as possible...
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